Werewolf, why to play or not to play?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As a moderator with a primary interest in book discussions, I have a rather different slant on this question. I watched the start of WW games with curiosity, even joined one to try it out, and found it to be extremely time-consuming. With that in mind, I watched with concern as the Books and other forums became neglected because the WW games involved so many members who suddenly had less time for posting there. I know not all members who play WW were active elsewhere, some even joined just to play, but a lot of previously excellent posters were too busy for discussion threads. So, if WW games slow down, perhaps there will be more of those again?

That said, real life is definitely a concern for many of us, whether we concentrate on discussion, mirth, RPing, or WW. Like numerous others, I find myself busier elsewhere now than I was back when I first joined and spent hours reading and writing posts. Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

[Nogrod]

Good to see all you people taking part in the discussion!

And yes, time, time, time...

I do agree with people who say that you shouldn't play if you can't take the time for it. To me as well playing WW means using time, reading, thinking and writing. It's a game only when you actually play it and that takes time. I also understand Morm's point when there are twenty hyperactive players around it may get a bit over the top but that hasn't been the case in a long-long time. I kind of remember games where there were something like 5 pages of posting on just Day1!

Where to find time? Lhuna was questioning us adults... Well, we just make that time. It's easy when you just set your duties aside. One can fex. tell oneself that as I have such a stress with the work it does me good to relax with a game this evening and leaving the stressful duties. Those duties will certainly come to slap you to the face later but then you just have to deal with them.

There have been some other very interesting questions raised as well. I'll just make a few brief comments as I have a WW-game to play right now and need to go to sleep pretty soon (about 6 hours before I need to wake up in the morning...).

I hadn't thought of the situation as the old-school vs. the newbies as sharply as some of the posts do. But there may be a wisdom in there. All I wish to say at the moment is to encourage the "old-school" -people to come back and try it out once again. It's still fun and the newer players come known to you only by playing with them. (And btw. Legate, if you say I'm the one who just keeps playing please remember that I'm a newbie compared to Lommy...)

I'd both agree and disagree with Rikae. I'd disagree with the point of the games coming "formulaic" or to be a kind of multiple choice -list stuff. For example in the last game (Gil's game that is) I was the seer and Legate was the ranger. We won the game by being the last two persons alive after a few pretty nice manouvres. I don't think that has ever happened before and it was a most enjoyable game in many ways. There would be other examples as well.

But I'd agree with Rikae if we discuss the Day1's... Oh, the Day1 discussion again... I think many people have become a bit too careful by being too knowledgeable of the possible loopholes with which they can save their necks. So even if I'm happy no one kind of whines how they hate Day1's anymore they play it in a safe-mode that is not so fun anymore. It oftentimes looks like getting alive from Day1 is more important than having a good game. Rikae's destiny in the game we are playing right now is a case in point.

Also. If people are not whining about their hatred against Day1's anymore then also the games and the after-game discussions have turned into a more civilised enterprise. I think there haven't been any problems with people getting confused with themselves as persons and as players in a game in a long time. Also I think people are very much encouraging and positive towards each other. So those problems seem to have disappeared and that's a good thing indeed.

Finally I'd like to appreciate Estelyn's viewpoint. I can see that perfectly well!

Which nicely brings us back to from where I started; time, time, time...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

As a moderator with a primary interest in book discussions, I have a rather different slant on this question. I watched the start of WW games with curiosity, even joined one to try it out, and found it to be extremely time-consuming. With that in mind, I watched with concern as the Books and other forums became neglected because the WW games involved so many members who suddenly had less time for posting there. I know not all members who play WW were active elsewhere, some even joined just to play, but a lot of previously excellent posters were too busy for discussion threads. So, if WW games slow down, perhaps there will be more of those again?

That said, real life is definitely a concern for many of us, whether we concentrate on discussion, mirth, RPing, or WW. Like numerous others, I find myself busier elsewhere now than I was back when I first joined and spent hours reading and writing posts. Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

These are very good things to mention. Also the Book one. The games like WW are relaxation, though sometimes one gets hooked and... well, the Downs are not entirely about this, are they? One could visit a special WWing (or Mafia, for that matter) forum. Or with less fantasy play a... Counterstrike or whatever they play these days (for me it used to be Aliens versus Predator).

There is something like a natural flow of things. There is time with more WW, there is time with less WW. The Preacher could say: "There is time for WWing, and there is time to stop WWing". But it's always that someone gets used to something and it's hard to leave that habit, and it seems strange when there are suddenly less players or less games. But look - now suddenly, there appeared people like sally, Nerwen, or The Might and they seem to enjoy the game (of course let's wait what they say on the afterthread). So who knows what the future of WW is. Whether it will or will not be played in the future, and in what scale, is still, for the most part, not in our powers. It depends on the interest of every person who is at this forum and even on the interest of every person who is not already at this forum, even, but will be.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I don't have time.

That simple.

Part of why I ran away is because of the experimental games and the formulaic approach to everybody. I may have time to play now and then, but not if I have to learn wacky rules which may involve hermaphroditic penguin rangers with muse-powers, and not if I'm going to be lynched based on ratio of times I've won to times your mom's lost... There's a difference between critical thinking and penning up Venn diagrams, Microsoft Excel documents, and lists of your uncle's former wife's old business major friends from her Uni days.

So when I play again (the last half of December, give or take), I can tell you what I'll be looking for, and you can glean from that whatever you like:

A fairly small game.

An inviting player list of people I know I'll have fun with.

Simple roles, simple rules.

An AM start/end time.

A mod who can write interesting death scenes.

Yep...

Bed time. Classes bright and early which will last until dark and late...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Well, I think there are many good reasons to play WereWolf. I quite enjoy the game, though I haven't played in probably about a year. There's the black humor, the suspense, intrigue, and suspicion, the refreshing complexity of working with (or against) some very intelligent people in a unique setting...

I wasn't driven away by a lack of variety. I wasn't scared off by the rumors of people taking it too seriously (in fact, I never encountered a situation like that, in any of the games I played!). I don't shy away from friendly competition, either.

In fact, the one reason I've stayed away is because I am, like Boro, Phantom, Fea, and probably many others, suddenly too busy for it. I have barely even been on the 'Downs at all lately (something I am trying to fix), to say nothing of having the free hours it would take to play. College is getting in the way. Being a theater major can mean twelve-hour days. I'm not complaining, since it's the life I've chosen for myself...but it does make participating here in any valuable capacity difficult.

There's also the fact that I live in an inconvenient time zone for most of the games I actually participated in (I'm in EST, and these things start and end either in the middle of class or late at night, it seems). This means I'd either miss voting entirely, or have to vote absurdly early, neither of which is constructive toward a good game experience for me or anyone else.

When piled onto my timezone, class, and theater schedule, another commitment of any kind just begins to sound like work, which isn't the attitude I'd want to approach this game with, either.

I am, however, hoping that there will be a game over winter break that I can take part in. In spite of all my real life issues (and the stress the game itself generates--just kidding!), WW is a lot of *fun* and I'd be sorry to see it go. I won't have work or class or theater. In short, I won't know what to do with myself, so I might as well play.

I think a return to the basics might do WW good, as Fea mentioned.

*A smaller number of players would mean a shorter game, and less reading, which makes it possible for people with more time constraints perhaps more able to play.

*A return to the basic rules with basic roles (werewolves, a ranger, a seer, and your common innocent villagers), might do well, too, in terms of making it accessible to all. That's not to say I don't *like* new ideas--I played the dueling wizards game, one of the lovers games, as well as the one with all the families in which I flirted with Phantom. Yes, that's how I categorize it. Heh. All were great fun...but a return to the basics really does have a certain charm.

*I'll deviate a bit and say a start/end time that I can deal with. It's not even a morning thing. I'm just not able to stay up until 3 am to cast my vote...regardless of the late hour as I post this.

*And who doesn't want a good death scene? When I get lynched by my misunderstanding fellow innocents, I want to go out in a true ironic style, snickering to myself at the sheer frustration and black humor of it all.

That said, I'm probably not going to be too picky about the game I join as winter break draws closer. I'm seriously going through WW withdrawal. My life could use a little suspense right now.

In fact, if the mod-list allows, I think a home for the holidays, back to the basics sort of game might be a good one to generate interest. Perhaps it could even help unite the old crowd with the new. Just a thought. I have no idea how it would work out.

People are complaining about the formulaic nature that is suddenly appearing. Perhaps it's just helpful to remind everyone that it's a game, and the nature of WW is that it is exactly as fun, exciting, twisty, and suspenseful as you make it. *shrug* Just a thought.

Sorry for the long ramble. It's clearly past my bedtime. :P

[Volo]

Would anybody like to mod the basic game? My turn is probably during the winter holidays: the end of December and beginning of January. I'd like to try a very experimental game. No, deffinitely nothing as complicated and frustrating as the first game I modded, that concept is out for now. The game will have many basic features mixed with new stuff. I have to admit that I'm probably over-ambitious with it. The ideal ammount of players would be 21 (!!!), but there won't be more than 14 players discussing at a time so in fact i'll be a rather small game.

Anyway, back to the question. Would anybody like to mod a basic game during the end of December. I can mod my game later if people clearly want something simple.

[Thinlómien]

Well, well, well...

as one of the (probably) most active ww-players and one who has been playing for quite a long time, and especially as someone who never has had a long pause from the game, I think I should say something on the topic. Yes, I feel like I have a sort of duty to post on this thread.

Many people (me included) often sigh after the "good old times", even though if you look from the real old timers' perspective, I'm just a newbie. I remember the early games and there certainly was something different from the current state. I think it was simply that the game was new back then. None of us had played in a dozen or more games, like now. Everything was new and new situations kept popping up all the time. Nowadays most of the even hilarious and extra challenging situations have been faced sometime in the past, and the senior players always bring those cases up - never thought of this, but possibly spoiling the newcomers' fun by saying "I know, it was like this in the game this-and-that, problem solved".

What I'm saying here is that we old players might indeed be the problem. I don't want to generalize, but very often we slip to this kind of thinking (I guess it's what you call formulaic thinking, isn't it?) and cease to think from fresh viewpoints just because we see no reason for it ("it was like that before, it is like that now, why would there be a change?"). And this is where we go so wrong. How often have I stopped, following some clearly trodden path of thought and realising it's not logical, it's just something we've always done before? And how often have I heard the wise words of a newcomer who still has a fresh perspective of the game who has not created the routine yet? Often, I tell you. Every time I'm a wolf (very seldom ) I can't help thinking how odd and random it is who is caught and who is not and why it is so. Also, I often think about the things that are clearly considered as signs of wolvery and how wrong they can be and how everything is, in the end, so random.

Also, one of my prejudices of us oldies has proven itself true on this thread. I hope no one is offended if I phrase this bluntly, but I think many of us are quite nit-picky. We want certain style of games, certain mods, certain people to play with. (I myself confess doing the two last ones, but often my hunger of ww exceeds my nit-picky sense of what would be a perfect game.) Somehow, it seems, many people are chasing a perfect game, some dream game or some nostalgic beautiful game of past. Those, sadly, can not come true. So we should be content with those we can have - intelligent, challenging, enjoyable and awesome games.

I do understand the craving to the old times, more than well. There are so many "old school players" I miss a lot and who I'd so much love to play again with. Besides, like always, time has made the early games look more fantastic than they probably were, the less memorable ones have been forgotten and only the greatest remain in active memory, thus making the whole picture of early ww games slightly biased. Although I'm quite sure that in the old times there was significantly less of the nuisance-like players who don't show up at all or post one one-liner post per day if even that... (and now I truly mean those one-liner players, I'm not exaggeratedly describing quieter players - even though I sometimes seem to demand vocal play from everybody, I have nothing against quiet players if they contribute - it's just their style.)

For my currently running game I tried to get some old faces playing. Because I missed them, I wanted to see them playing and - to be honest - to integrate them to the current wwing society and make them know the newer players. Sadly those I invited were all too busy and declined the request. It's the time...

I think we should have one (or hopefully more than just one) realtively small, classic game in which some true old-timers would play alongside with the newer guys. Some truly old school player could mod that so it would assure that many hardcore old timers were interested to play. But I definitely think it should be no closed game for just the old timers, but one with both old and new players and they could get to know each other. Besides, both the older and newer generation would have new challenges as they would be playing with many players they're never played with before and that would force them to think from a fresh angle. (And we go-betweens or always-hang-arounds could just be losers... ) AND you shouldn't play it during the Christmas holiday if I'm going to be away 'cos otherwise I'm going to be really sad!

I would be sad as well if the current state of inactivity in ww remained. I love ww. It's just a perfect game: no game is identic with another - it's always an individual challenge, it's a way to spend time with your friends or getting to know new nice people, an intriguing intellectual and rhetorical challenge, a way of both relaxing and doing something exciting and, with good mod and players, even a literature pleasure. Because of those things, I've never really stopped playing (except when I've had not time or no net access) and hopefully never will.

Yours truly,
Thinlómien

PS. Interesting... I think this discussion actually resembles the one we had here and in, for example, LiveJournal at the time of the davem-crisis. Back then, most people said they have a problematic relationship with the books discussions: they always follow the same lines, nobody's there anymore, everything has been discussed etc. Doesn't that sound familiar?

PPS. It is great that so many "old faces" have posted on this thread. Both the fact that they follow this forum frequently enough to see this thread and what they say about playing give me hope of seeing them around in the werewolf games again some time in the future...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I hope no one is offended if I phrase this bluntly, but I think many of us are quite nit-picky.

I am. Because in a very literal way, if a game isn't the 'perfect' game, I can't make it work. The thing to remember is that the variables which make up my idea of 'perfect' change based on how my life is changing.

PPS. It is great that so many "old faces" have posted on this thread. Both the fact that they follow this forum frequently enough to see this thread and what they say about playing give me hope of seeing them around in the werewolf games again some time in the future...

I make a point to follow threads. I'm just a lot more nit-picky about what discussions I want to dedicate myself to posting in. If I don't have the time to do a good job of it, I don't want to waste anybody else's by making them read what I have to say.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

Not only change, but the long defeat is a major Tolkien theme. Seems things were always better back in the day for Tolkien and his elves, so I suppose it will seem that way to Tolkien fans too. Is the answer just for all to sail west? Or are werewolves not wanted on the voyage?

[The Might]

Don't play it, it's addictive

[Thinlómien]

Do play it, it's addictive.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ach. When you've already played loads of games, always with the same people, it's no surprise that you don't want to do it so frequently.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Ach. When you've already played loads of games, always with the same people, it's no surprise that you don't want to do it so frequently.

Now that's an interesting opinion. Quite different from most that were stated here. That's exactly what I had in mind - playing always with the same people leads to stagnation, it's nice to play with those you know, but even if the situations may start to seem the same, with different people there is at least some change.

[Lhunardawen]

I'm sure it will be very nice to play with the same old people again after long, though.

This is rather at a tangent from the topic, but I want to share it anyway. One problem with getting a bit too close to fellow Werewolf players is that the relationship could impair one's judgment in the game. In one game, for example, a werecreature was one vote away from getting lynched, and the loss or victory for either side lay in the hands of someone who was rather close to the werecreature. In the end the would-be swing voter chose not to vote, citing an unwillingness to vote for the werecreature as one of the reasons, although the non-voter was also not confident of the werecreature's villainous ways so their closeness was not the main reason. In the end the werecreature won.

Moral of the story? When in doubt, you can always use a trusty abacus.