Eowyn vs. Aragorn - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

alatar · 11-13-2007, 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quempel

Which mega bad person did Aragorn defeat?

Lurtz, countless orcs (walking and riding), Wargs, Uruks, Five of the Nazgul, the Mouth of Sauron, the King of the Dead, Elrond (having daughters myself, this may have been Aragorn's greatest threat), my credulity when he went cliff-diving and got horse-kissed...

Impressive enough list to stack against the resume of a shieldmaiden, having only killed countless orcs, an oliphaunt and the Witch-King.

Quempel · 11-13-2007, 04:34 PM

Well then there's Frodo.

Frodo did more in one ring toss than Aragorn did ever. Last time I checked Frodo wasn't trained in much of anything.

Sauron the White · 11-14-2007, 10:16 AM

Yes - and the pilot of the Enola Gay wiped out tens of thousands with a single bomb - but that does not make him a better fighter than the world Heavyweight boxing champion.

Quempel · 11-14-2007, 10:34 AM

Funny I don't recall Smokin' Joe Lewis ending WWII all by himself.

Sir Kohran · 11-14-2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Frodo defeated Sauron

Hardly. The only people in Middle-Earth who can claim to have done that are Elendil and Gil-Galad (or Isildur, depending on the version). All Frodo did was do something that led to Sauron's defeat.

If it was Sauron in one corner of the ring (pun intended) and Frodo opposite him, somehow I would doubt whether Frodo could 'defeat' him

Quempel · 11-14-2007, 11:43 AM

Doesn't defeat mean to destroy, to nullify? Doesn't seem to me that Sauron was either, he was simply set back a step, not defeated. Not until Frodo threw in the ring was Sauron destroyed and nullified. Had Gil-galad, ect. actually defeated him, there would be no need for any of the Fellowship, none whatsoever. No need for Aragorn to be raised in Rivendale. No need for the Fellowship. No need for Helms Deep, no need for Pel Fields, no need for any of it whatsoever. Had he been defeated, none of it would have happened.

Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur failed to defeat Sauron. Had they succeeded, that battle would have been the last battle in ME and there would be no need of any of the rest of the story, that battle would have won the war. They won one battle, that's it. They did not win the war.

It was Frodo that ended the war. It was his small insignificant non-warrior like actions that ended the war. One would think that is what Tolkien was actually trying to convey, that even the smallest person can change the world, since that is what he repeatedly wrote about.

And if you want to argue real world non-military people changing the world, the two biggest influences in the world were not warriors of any sort. Those two people being Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus so influenced the world that the superpower warrior world of Rome changed religions and influenced much of the way we now live in the west, and he never once raised a sword to battle. The world has been so influenced by these two men that we elect our leaders because they will either not let gays marry or they will get the infidels. Neither were warriors.

And neither was Frodo, yet he did more for ME than Aragorn ever could. Aragorn did not have the spirit, purity or ability to destroy the ring, it wasn't in him, and all the warrior training in the world could not give him that, because it was not something he could ever attain, it was a true nobility that he could vaguely feel in himself. He recognized it in Frodo and thus wanted to help him. Eowyn possesed some of this nobility and Aragorn recognized this too, he wasn't playing cat and mouse with her, he realized she was willing to lay down her life and fight for what she believed in, and he honored that and he also realized a person willing to lay down their life for their family and beliefs can and often do defeat the military.

Folwren · 11-14-2007, 01:09 PM

Good post, Quempel...however...Frodo, in the end, failed, too. He did not throw the ring into the fire. I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do.

I wouldn't compare Frodo and Aragorn. Their paths were different and their rolls non-comparable, to my mind.

Besides, we're talking about the movies here. In the movie, Frodo practically is on the exact same level as Aragorn and they are almost comparable. We should have this discussion in the book threads.

-- Folwren

Sauron the White · 11-14-2007, 01:12 PM

The last few points, in my humble opinion, totally miss the point of this thread. The point was about the fighting skills of Eowyn vs. Aragorn. We are talking about individual fighting skill. We were not considering the employment of the equal of an atomic weapon (aka - The Ring) in Middle-earth. Aragorn stood alone in his fighting skill. Period.

Cross posted with Folwren who brings up an excellent point about Frodo and the ring. Spot on.

11-13-2007, 04:34 PM	#2
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	Well then there's Frodo. Frodo did more in one ring toss than Aragorn did ever. Last time I checked Frodo wasn't trained in much of anything. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

11-14-2007, 10:34 AM	#4
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	Funny I don't recall Smokin' Joe Lewis ending WWII all by himself. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

11-14-2007, 11:43 AM	#6
Quempel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In a flower Posts: 97	Doesn't defeat mean to destroy, to nullify? Doesn't seem to me that Sauron was either, he was simply set back a step, not defeated. Not until Frodo threw in the ring was Sauron destroyed and nullified. Had Gil-galad, ect. actually defeated him, there would be no need for any of the Fellowship, none whatsoever. No need for Aragorn to be raised in Rivendale. No need for the Fellowship. No need for Helms Deep, no need for Pel Fields, no need for any of it whatsoever. Had he been defeated, none of it would have happened. Elendil, Gil-Galad and Isildur failed to defeat Sauron. Had they succeeded, that battle would have been the last battle in ME and there would be no need of any of the rest of the story, that battle would have won the war. They won one battle, that's it. They did not win the war. It was Frodo that ended the war. It was his small insignificant non-warrior like actions that ended the war. One would think that is what Tolkien was actually trying to convey, that even the smallest person can change the world, since that is what he repeatedly wrote about. And if you want to argue real world non-military people changing the world, the two biggest influences in the world were not warriors of any sort. Those two people being Jesus and Muhammad. Jesus so influenced the world that the superpower warrior world of Rome changed religions and influenced much of the way we now live in the west, and he never once raised a sword to battle. The world has been so influenced by these two men that we elect our leaders because they will either not let gays marry or they will get the infidels. Neither were warriors. And neither was Frodo, yet he did more for ME than Aragorn ever could. Aragorn did not have the spirit, purity or ability to destroy the ring, it wasn't in him, and all the warrior training in the world could not give him that, because it was not something he could ever attain, it was a true nobility that he could vaguely feel in himself. He recognized it in Frodo and thus wanted to help him. Eowyn possesed some of this nobility and Aragorn recognized this too, he wasn't playing cat and mouse with her, he realized she was willing to lay down her life and fight for what she believed in, and he honored that and he also realized a person willing to lay down their life for their family and beliefs can and often do defeat the military. __________________ Lurking behind Uncle Fester

11-14-2007, 01:09 PM	#7
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Good post, Quempel...however...Frodo, in the end, failed, too. He did not throw the ring into the fire. I do not suggest that he did not do an extremely great deed and completed an amazing quest almost to the end, but he did not do what he had set out to do. I wouldn't compare Frodo and Aragorn. Their paths were different and their rolls non-comparable, to my mind. Besides, we're talking about the movies here. In the movie, Frodo practically is on the exact same level as Aragorn and they are almost comparable. We should have this discussion in the book threads. -- Folwren __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

11-14-2007, 10:16 AM	#3
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Yes - and the pilot of the Enola Gay wiped out tens of thousands with a single bomb - but that does not make him a better fighter than the world Heavyweight boxing champion.

11-14-2007, 01:12 PM	#8
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	The last few points, in my humble opinion, totally miss the point of this thread. The point was about the fighting skills of Eowyn vs. Aragorn. We are talking about individual fighting skill. We were not considering the employment of the equal of an atomic weapon (aka - The Ring) in Middle-earth. Aragorn stood alone in his fighting skill. Period. Cross posted with Folwren who brings up an excellent point about Frodo and the ring. Spot on.