Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Aiwendil · 11-07-2007, 05:05 PM

Regarding your first point: perhaps you have misunderstood something. In our version, both Ufedhin and the treacherous Elves are out. As far as I'm concerned there are two main reasons for this:

1. The absence of this element in all subsequent writings (most notably the Quenta).

2. The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version.

Now, one could argue that the first point is due to compression (though the absence of such a notable makes that view quite disputable). But it seems to me that in any case, the second point is still forcing.

About your second point: I believe (I may be recalling incorrectly) that we ended up using very little text from the '77 Silmarillion in our version. In any case, the major plot elements invented by Christopher Tolkien for that version were all rejected.

If you'd like to address some of the specific instances where we use the '77 (and perhaps suggest alternatives), your thoughts would of course be welcome.

emrys · 11-08-2007, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version.

I understan your point of view here, but I don't think your solution to be so different from the original one in the lost tale.

Let me try to summerize

Lost Tales

Thingol (counseled by Ufedhin) summon the dwarves
Thingol quarrel with the dwarves
The Dwarves go to war
(and aided by Treacerous elves) kill Thingol in the woods
The Dwarves aided by the same elves invade Doriath
Melian (older version) escape to Beren

Your Version

Thingol Summons the dwarves
Thingol quarrel with the dwarves
The dwarves go to war
the find thingol in the woods and kill him
Melian became mad and the girdle is removed

Now this two version to me seem to be very close (correct me if I'm wrong) but in the new version:
Ufedhin is removed (Tolkien don't mention him but I think that by removing him a very nice fragment will be lost)
The Treacherous elves are removed (but the fact that Tolkien didn't like this solution doesn't mean that he would have finally abandoned it)
Melian go away before all the realm his lost (which is not what I expect her to do)

That said I would have taken in the final story both Ufedhin and the treacherous elves for these main reasons:

1) I read the original story after the necessary modifications (Update of Names, Remove of Huan and Dwarves of Belegost, etc?) and I found that it doesn't contraddict Tolkien final thoughts in many parts and also it is a very nice story

2) Retaining that version imply very few modifications on the original tolkien text.

Next time If you think the discussion to be useful I'll try to post puntual comments starting from WoH...

A question: I have made a text without your standard codifications (because I started before discovering this site); can I quote some rows of text without this coding or do you prefer I enter this references in the text before posting?

Thanks for your reply

Emrys

Findegil · 11-12-2007, 10:53 PM

Please go ahead and post your specific critics. I don't mind to find your version without the markers for edited parts we used, but it would be nice if you could at least refer to them in the comments you make to the passages you give. That would make it make much easier for us to identify the spots we are talking about.

The thread 2**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** holds most of the discussion to the 2 points you brought up.

Respectfully
Findegil

11-07-2007, 05:05 PM	#1
Aiwendil Late Istar Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,224	Regarding your first point: perhaps you have misunderstood something. In our version, both Ufedhin and the treacherous Elves are out. As far as I'm concerned there are two main reasons for this: 1. The absence of this element in all subsequent writings (most notably the Quenta). 2. The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version. Now, one could argue that the first point is due to compression (though the absence of such a notable makes that view quite disputable). But it seems to me that in any case, the second point is still forcing. About your second point: I believe (I may be recalling incorrectly) that we ended up using very little text from the '77 Silmarillion in our version. In any case, the major plot elements invented by Christopher Tolkien for that version were all rejected. If you'd like to address some of the specific instances where we use the '77 (and perhaps suggest alternatives), your thoughts would of course be welcome.

11-12-2007, 10:53 PM	#3
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	Please go ahead and post your specific critics. I don't mind to find your version without the markers for edited parts we used, but it would be nice if you could at least refer to them in the comments you make to the passages you give. That would make it make much easier for us to identify the spots we are talking about. The thread 2Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread holds most of the discussion to the 2 points you brought up. Respectfully Findegil