The Route of the Ring

[The Might]

"As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless. Yet they would not be safe. The watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them..."

I think here you have the problem of seeing this from 2 totally different points of view.
In my post above I talked abut this possibility as an outsider person, that knows well what happened afterwards, while you answered it from Gandalf's perspective. He hoped t pass Caradhras without problems, go to Lorien, then through the Marshes and maybe use sme unknown path to enter Mordor or whatever. Theoretically.
But really would this road I though about have been less safe then all the Ringbearer went through, Moria and the Balrog, Orcs and a Nazgul attacking them from the eastern shore of Anduin, a dangerous passage through the Marshes, Ithilien filled with Sauron's minions and finally the Morgul Vale.

Was this really in the end more safe then going through Southern Gondor to Minas Tirith and then somehow to Mount Doom? I expect Gandalf knew about the Dead so Aragorn summoning them on the way to MT is definitely very likely. Also, the road might seem longer, but would it have really been longer?

And I repeat, I am asking this as an outside observer, and not thinking about what the Fellowship thought.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, let me put it this way: Sauron did not know that there's some "spy" in Mordor and he did not seek him. Saruman would have made all the effort to catch the Ringbearer if he knew (and he would have known) that the Ring is near, as I said earlier. The second problem would have been the supplies, they'd still have Bill, but the jouney through Drúwaith Iaur and Andrast is without any possibility to easily buy or get food (like they got from the elves in Lórien). Aragorn and Legolas could surely hunt something, but hunting or gathering food sufficient for nine people, including a warrior from Gondor and four hobbits is a task that cannot be accomplished easily and the possibilities would be to either hunt every day (nonsense, since then the Fellowship almost won't move) or always stop, hunt down ten deers and then go several days without the need to resupply.

Also, crossing the river would create a problem later: the people in the Fellowship even talk about it, I believe at the end of the second book, saying that they are lucky that they can cross the river on boats if they choose to. Down there, they would probably need to cross Osgiliath, which was impossible without the use of military power, and that in turn would of course warn Sauron of something happening (he did the same when he wanted to get the Riders to the western bank).

Not that it is a totally bad idea, but the journey would still be very dangerous due to Saruman and the reasons mentioned above. Also, even if Aragorn gathered the Dead, there will be no one to defend Rohan against Saruman, and no Light from Galadriel, and no Gollum (!). Then Aragorn and Boromir would have probably gone for Minas Tirith, in the best case helping to distract Sauron while the remaining Companions attempt to penetrate Mordor. But even if the Fellowship succeeded and Frodo, guarded by Gandalf would cast the Ring into the Mountain, there will be a really serious problem: a Many-Coloured Lord of Rohan, as Gandalf said to Denethor, he won't see allies arriving from Rohan, but foes. And so the Battle at the Pelennor Fields would have to be made one more time, this time probably with already broken gate and lowered number of men. If they'd even survive the first one without the Rohirrim, that is.

[The Might]

Legate, you again seem to totally misunderstand me.
If you would read my first post again you'd notice that I did not attempt to show this alternative could have been better or at least as good as what happened, but that it could have been taken as a valid option into account.

There still were Druedain living in that area, and if we were to simply speculate they were quite similar to the woses met by the Rohirrim, they would have probably helped the Fellowship, as they too fought the Orcs. From there it wouldn't have been a huge way till Pinnath Gelin, which we know was inhabited.

You speak about all the disadvantages of this route compared to the others, but you don't seem to take its great advantages into account.
No Moria, no Anduin with the eastern side watched by the Enemy, no all everything.

As for crossing Anduin, well, Pelargir comes to mind.

All in all, what I want to say, is not that this would have been a better alternative in the end, probably not, but was definitely an option that could have been taken into account.
I doubt that Gandalf planned what happened afterwards, for example Merry and Pippin's coming to Fangorn.
Their way through Moria could have been ever more devastating had the battle with the Orcs ended otherwise, the Ring could have been lost in some pit together with Frodo.
So I wouldn't be so hasty to clearly say that the road they took was the ideal one.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

Legate, you again seem to totally misunderstand me.
If you would read my first post again you'd notice that I did not attempt to show this alternative could have been better or at least as good as what happened, but that it could have been taken as a valid option into account.

I think you are being a little bit contradictory here. In the post before you said that you are not looking from the point of the Fellowship. From whose point then do you want to "take it as valid option into account"? Because I took it from the point of one who analyzes the roads that could have been taken, from the point of a "tactician" who reads the book and thinks about alternative routes to Mordor. I don't see how I should misunderstand you in this way.

Originally Posted by TM

There still were Druedain living in that area, and if we were to simply speculate they were quite similar to the woses met by the Rohirrim, they would have probably helped the Fellowship, as they too fought the Orcs. From there it wouldn't have been a huge way till Pinnath Gelin, which we know was inhabited.

Well, the Drúedain were not willing to meddle into the affairs of the outworlders normally. With the Rohirrim, it was a very special case. Maybe they could have helped if the Fellowship was chased by the Uruk-hai of Mordor (and it would make a great part of the story, I think - something like the Rangers of Ithilien, "getting help where you don't expect it"), but I don't think that they'd just choose to help a band of travelers. Helping the company has nothing to do with the hatred of Orcs (one does not explain to a Wose that when the Ring is destroyed, a large threat posed by the Orcs is warded off).

Originally Posted by TM

You speak about all the disadvantages of this route compared to the others, but you don't seem to take its great advantages into account.
No Moria, no Anduin with the eastern side watched by the Enemy, no all everything.

I did not think it was necessary to think of the advantages, they are clear. But the only thing that is compensated is Moria (although it's a large blow), because the eastern side of Anduin watched by the Enemy is still in play (as I said above). But in the worst scenario as I outlined it above, meeting Saruman would be at least equal to the encounter with the Balrog (definitely when it was close to his home and he had also all the Orcs and stuff who, unlike the Orcs of Moria, would not tremble in the corner when Saruman would battle Gandalf, but fight alongside him).

Originally Posted by TM

As for crossing Anduin, well, Pelargir comes to mind.

Possibly? But that means a long journey on the road from south to the Crossroad, and with the reinforcements of Haradrim heading towards Imlad Morgul, in the land south of the Crossroad, unprotected by the Rangers of Ithilien, I wouldn't call that a safe way.

Originally Posted by TM

I doubt that Gandalf planned what happened afterwards, for example Merry and Pippin's coming to Fangorn.
Their way through Moria could have been ever more devastating had the battle with the Orcs ended otherwise, the Ring could have been lost in some pit together with Frodo.
So I wouldn't be so hasty to clearly say that the road they took was the ideal one.

Of course Gandalf did not plan that, he says that himself. To be honest, I get the feeling (and it has been voiced many times on many threads and not only by myself) that he did not have any plan (even Aragorn says that at certain moment).
But what you say about Moria, I think, could be applied for any road. Any battle with Orcs could have ended otherwise (and the worse, as I said many times, near Isengard and on open grounds, where they could be surrounded in a wood or something like that), so maybe only the falling to the pit. But I did not certainly say that the way through Moria was "ideal" - that's what Gandalf thought (obviously). Although it's true that it still looks better to me than taking the Ring near Isengard, whatever the case.

[The Might]

Well, sorry if I havent't expressed myself well enough. I also meant this as an outside observer, asking myself why this other way was not taken into consideration.
I mean by this that had I, been a member of the Fellowhip (The Might the Almighty ) I would have thought about it twice before entering Moria.

As for the second part, I think this is a subjective view. While you believe that Moria was, although dangerous, still better then south near Isengard, I think otherwise.

Indeed the marching Haradrim would have been a problem, but you must keep in mind, they were marching all the way to the north, so maybe only by going through the north they could have avoided this at all, but as it was close to Barad-dur that road would in the end be more dangerous. That way the Haradrim would be a problem no matter if the Fellowship had gone through Moria and the north or near Isengard and then south of Orodruin. Indeed, the north was watched by the Rangers and they could have helped the Fellowship, which does give north a certain advantage, I agree. But the south would be less watched, since most of the forces were already concentrated in the north of Mordor.

All in all, I don't wish to speculate how the Fellowship would have gotten into Mordor from the south, just as I don't wish to speculate how they would have done that from the north, had things gone otherwise during the Quest.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by The Might

As for the second part, I think this is a subjective view. While you believe that Moria was, although dangerous, still better then south near Isengard, I think otherwise.

Well, you see what my point is - the Balrog, in contrary to Saruman, was not looking for the Ring and searching for it extensively. Also, Saruman was awake and spying up and down all the land, while the Balrog had to be awakened by some fool of a Took. This is why I believe the journey south was at least the same, if not more dangerous than Moria.

Originally Posted by TM

Indeed the marching Haradrim would have been a problem, but you must keep in mind, they were marching all the way to the north, so maybe only by going through the north they could have avoided this at all, but as it was close to Barad-dur that road would in the end be more dangerous. That way the Haradrim would be a problem no matter if the Fellowship had gone through Moria and the north or near Isengard and then south of Orodruin. Indeed, the north was watched by the Rangers and they could have helped the Fellowship, which does give north a certain advantage, I agree. But the south would be less watched, since most of the forces were already concentrated in the north of Mordor.

I'm afraid I don't understand what was the journey you meant here. Through Moria, then near Isengard (what? Why??? They already passed across the mountains, why head towards Isengard?) and south of Orodruin (where? How? You mean, through Gorgoroth? Or what? It's obvious that they would need to go through Gorgoroth. But how you present it is a little uncontinuous. I simply don't understand at all what you have in mind. Perhaps I am just sleepy).

[The Might]

Sorry, I just realise how stupid it sounds.
What I wanted t say is that the Haradrim posed a thread not only in South Ithilien, but also in the north, as they marched along that way as well. Though I must admit that that region was better defended due to the Rangers.

However, entering Mordor from the south (as I supposed they would have, had they gone through South Gondor), might have had its advantages as well, as that would mean that less Orcs would be in that area.

Again, sorry for my indeed very strange post.