Narn i Chîn Húrin 3: The End of the Narn

[Aiwendil]

Plus the goal of this project from my understanding is to eliminate footnotes by incorporating them as well as all other sources that can be inserted without altering the text too much, or at all, with our own words or altering to our knowledge Tolkien’s latest and or final plans and decisions for his histories of middle earth.

This is more or less the problem I have always had with footnotes in this project, though I can see how they might be justifiable in principle.

Anyway, in this instance, I agree that a footnote is not the way to go.

It's not entirely clear to me what the best course is in this passage. If I understand Christopher's discussion correctly, the final text by JRRT seems to contain a contradiction: on the one hand, they stop climbing up before they reach the top (suggesting they would go back down) and later they are said to clamber along the water's edge to reach the spot where Glaurung crosses. On the other hand, Turin still has a dream 'in which all his strength is given to clinging'.

If we must choose one or the other alternative, I suppose we must go with the story that they climb down and then go along the water's edge. That leaves two questions: first, whether we must delete the dream; second, whether it is necessary to add something to the text to indicate that they climbed down.

I'm inclined to answer the second question in the negative. Their climbing down can be seen as implicit in the statement that they stopped halfway up. In any case, Tolkien seems not to have felt anything more necessary. As for the dream, I suppose it should probably go. One could suppose that Turin climbed back down and still then had a dream in which he was clinging to the cliff - but I am inclined to agree with Christopher here that this was an artifact of the previous version.

So my suggestion is to delete the dream but otherwise retain JRRT's final version of the text. And sorry for my accustomed long-windedness.

[emrys]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is more or less the problem I have always had with footnotes in this project, though I can see how they might be justifiable in principle.

Anyway, in this instance, I agree that a footnote is not the way to go.

Right...got the point...

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Their climbing down can be seen as implicit in the statement that they stopped halfway up. In any case, Tolkien seems not to have felt anything more necessary.

That seems to me right...it is implicit...there is no need to add anything else

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

As for the dream, I suppose it should probably go. One could suppose that Turin climbed back down and still then had a dream in which he was clinging to the cliff - but I am inclined to agree with Christopher here that this was an artifact of the previous version.

I can't see the problem of the dream...to me it simply referes to what happened the day after when Turin killed the dragon...I would thus not apply any change...

[Findegil]

Posted by Aaront596:

Do we have access to this draft?

No. All we have is given in my posting no 14 above. But my speaking was only theoretical. If this passages contains some unclear events than that is not our fault but Tolkiens we should leave it at that.

But for my understanding there is just an implicit movement and nothing more. To make my point clear I will give a sequence of events as I see it:

- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung

This is very near to the draft as Christopher Tolkien describes it. Only that in the draft Túrin and Hunthor go all the way up to the edge of the cliff.

Now Christopher Tolkien does say to this:

It seems then that the final story carries an unneeded trait from the previous draft.

He thinks that:

... in the revised story there was no need for them to cling: they could and surely would have descended to the bottom and waited there.

Up to this point he is right but I am not sure that his next interpretation is the only possible one:

In fact, this is what they did: it is said in the final text (Unfinished Tales, p. 134) that they were not standing in Glaurung's path and that Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him'.

For me this is an contradiction: Either the final story 'carries an unneeded trait' since Túrin clings to the cliff through the night with out need or 'in fact,' 'descended to the bottom and waited there' 'is what they did'.
Christopher Tolkien takes the decision 'to give it [the text] coherence' by skipping the implicit movement down the cliff in the morning. Therefore Túrin and Hunthor are not 'standing' but 'were' in Glaurungs pass and they do not 'clambered along the water-edge' but 'along the cliff'.

Thus Christopher Tolkien does change the sequence of events to:
- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb half way up the cliff.
- They decide to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they 'clambered along the cliff to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs to the cliffs edge and slaughters Glaurung

The question is now for me: Do we follow Christhopher Tolkiens lead here or do we take JRR Tolkiens text as he left it?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aaront596]

I'm ready to put in my vote

Good work Findegil! This is entirely correct!!!

- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung

I think there is no need to change any of it since we don't have any of Tolkien’s words to explicitly spell out their coming down. We should just leave it implicit. That’s what Tolkien did.

As far as Christopher saying they would surely come down instead of sleeping clinging to a tree, only Tolkien knows that and he is dead, not even his son knows. So why didn't they wait there over night hoping that where they were was where the dragon would show up? Then they moved down and back up when it was obvious the dragon was somewhere else.

What ever the reason for their staying and clinging doesn’t really matter, the text says that is what they did and since Tolkien’s words say that I vote we leave it alone with no changes.

Of course this is all just my opinion, but it is also my vote.

[Aiwendil]

Findegil wrote:

The question is now for me: Do we follow Christhopher Tolkiens lead here or do we take JRR Tolkiens text as he left it?

I don't think there's any question of following Christopher's lead. If there is a contradiction in JRRT's final text, it must be resolved in favour of the new story - that they came back down and moved along the bottom of the ravine.

As far as I'm concerned the only question is whether JRRT's text is self-contradictory. I can certainly see Christopher's case for the view that the dream of clinging is an inconsistent holdover from the previoius version. Actually I think this is probably the case. However, I don't think that a contradiction is necessarily implied, so I suppose we could keep the dream.

I don't know if I agree with Findegil's synopsis:

- Túrin and Hunthor cross the Taeglin.
- They climb halfe way up the cliff.
- They decied to stay were they are and cling to the trees of the cliff over night.
- Túrin dreams of clinging to a tree.
- When Glaurung moves in the morning they have to climb down first. This movement is implicit, since
- Túrin 'clambered along the water-edge to come beneath him [Glaurung]')
- Hunthor is slain by a stone, when they come under Glaurung
- Túrin climbs the cliff and slaughters Glaurung

I think Christopher is right that it makes little sense to cling to the cliff half-way up if they intend to climb down to move to the place where Glaurung crosses - although I suppose they might at this point not have been sure whether they would need to climb down again or not. Anyway, if we go with JRRT's final text, we need not address the issue of when they climb down - whether they spend the night clinging to the cliff or at the bottom of the ravine.