Tol-In-Gaurhoth XXXVIII - E.T.T.T.S.O.W.I.

[Nogrod]

Concerning Lommy.

Our student activist Mac did indeed raise some noteworthy points against her (#47). I would add two things. Firstly it seems that she has really spent some time analysing the henchmen position (#45). It was a bit too elaborate coming from just an innocent trying to think a bit what the baddies might have thought. It sounded like a henchman who had already thought these things through a gazillion times during the Night and now used parts of that reasoning. Secondly I'd interpret a bit more into Lommy's "There seems to be few actual points against me" than Mac who only says it's suspiciously unspecific or half-hearted. I mean, why would an innocent phrase herself like that? Lommy's is the way a baddie thinks.

A civilian protests that the others have got it wrong or she calls for the actual suspicions to be brought forwards so that she can answer them if necessary. But a baddie then, she underlines the fact that there are not enough actual points against her and thence the others should focus elsewhere. Who - as an innocent - would say that becasue you don't have a good case leave me alone? An innocent says, because I'm innocent you should leave me alone for you're hurting our common cause.

[Nogrod]

Concerning Macalaure.

I said yesterDay that this young student activist has no good intentions (check #24 for more). No leftwing activists have good intentions when we look at the society as a whole. Some of them may have a good heart but that then gets overrun by naivéte.

But it looks pretty believable to me that both Lommy and Mac are not henchmen. Even if Mac kind of treats Lommy with silken gloves he manages to raise good points against Lommy in a situation where she is already under some general pressure. These two might pull that kind of bluff to be sure, but if Lommy is lynched toDay (and actually turns out a henchwoman) I'm not sure if Mac as a lonely henchman could count on surviving the rest of the Days. Maybe I should ask the CIA-guys to put him under a surveillance as well?

But Mac might indeed be the villain - student activistis are villains to the ordered society in the general sense of the term in any case. But just look at his posting yesterDay and remember that the villain needs to catch the attention of the henchmen and that El Gil specifically mentioned that the villain is the leader whose work the henchmen will accomplish.

Now how does this acti-Mac enter the discussion? By calling for his henchmen to get rid of me in two consequent posts... He all but issues a straight order to them back there. So contacting his hänschenmen and giving them their first mission (a hint being: I give you orders ie. I'm your boss as the villain is the leader of the henchmen).

Who else do you think tried to contact her/his henchmen yesterDay? Remember that in a small island like this the villain needs to do that because otherwise her/his own henchmen might kill her/him.

But to be honest, Mac's posting toDay has been quite helpful and reasonable. He's intelligent enough to stop sending messages after he believes the point ("hello, I'm the one!") has gone through and when continuing it might endanger his own life. Or then he just got loose on his first posts and is now settling down for a bit more constructive participation...

That said, the worst I can think of now from Mac - before the CIA reports that is - is that he's then the villain, not a henchman and we should not rush to a villain now if we have a chance of getting a henchman. And I'm beginning to feel that we might just be at it.

[Nogrod]

I need to go to sleep now.

Just a general point still. I'm sorry to patronise but you know us conservatists. We're such patriots, and proud of it.

If the situation actually is 4-3 (hey Peeko, please answer) the super scientist might do well to come forwards at least if s/he knows a baddie or if we're doing insane choices. Even erasing one innocent name from the list might help our quest toDay if all will end with one bad choice.

(OOC: If I remember it correctly the cobbler is normally counted as a villager in the tallies - and thence it would be 5-2 now - but I'd like to know for sure as with this small village the information will be crucial already toDay.)

Originally Posted by Susie

Are you saying that Lommy's guess is more correct than the other guesses so far and therefore showing that you also thought like this? That would mean that you have a part in selecting Menel as the victim.

You're a bit too reckless with your conclusions... I didn't say Lommy's "guess" is more correct (how could I?) so there can't be a "therefore" included or any "that means" either. I just think her account is wealthier in detail and very much believable. And that makes me suspect her. She really has gone through the possibilities. Read it again and think.

Originally Posted by daughter of a random goat-herder

I myself thought of the reasons exactly the same way

Really? You really thought of all those variants, and got to the same conclusions? You have spent a lot of time pondering this game if compared to the time you spend actually participating it with writing something - and you must be a soulmate to this hippie-girly.

Or did you two have these discussions last Night?

I was a bit troubled with your nonsensical approach yesterDay. You were my only other candidate for being the villain after Mac as you kept repeating how unreasonable you have been (villain needs to cause confusion so talking nonsense does just that) and you had also that weird hint about the great grandma' or something wedding a werewolf...

But now I must say that I'm a little alert indeed.

I'll be back later toDay.

[Macalaure]

Nogrod analysed that line of Lommy better than I did.

Lommy is really my prime suspect at the moment, for all reasons stated above and also for her general nervousness and tension.

There's something mighty wrong with the way Volo defends Lommy. A lot could be said about it, but I don't have the time right now. Villain? Possible.

Nogrod, I'm neither the villain nor a Hänschmann.
But, as long as you don't want to lynch me, I can live with your suspicions.

I'm away tomorrow, so I will only be able to stop by very briefly and rather early to give my vote. I hope I'll be able to read something from Brinniel by then, not to mention xyzzy.

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Legate

Comrade Lommy started to act a little bit touchy now

With this I agree, she's also "too happy".

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Really? You really thought of all those variants, and got to the same conclusions?

No, not really. I hadn't thought about Brinniel's position in it (she's escaping under my radar and I wish her to show up). It seems strange that Lommy mentioned Brinniel from such a perspective. I highly doubt that Menel was really after Brinniel, so much that he'd have dreamed about her, or then Lommy forgets that the Scientist didn't get to dream on Night1.

Still, Lommy leans more to innocent side.

You have spent a lot of time pondering this game if compared to the time you spend actually participating it with writing something...

Yes, or so I want to believe.


Have to run.

[Brinniel]

Sorry, sorry....I got caught up with Halloween celebrations. I dressed up as a dead soldier. Well, someone's gotta send the message...

Anyways...on the subject of Menel's death, I don't see why some of you are so surprised. It's quite typical for henchmen to go after the quiet ones for their first kill. After all, it's still too early to have a clear idea on who the gifteds are and this way no obvious tracks are left behind. Menel may not have been silent, but he made a grand total of two posts, neither of which have a lot of substance. Just about anyone here could've chosen him for a kill.

With all but one of the quiet players eliminated, we now definitely know there is a henchmen among the vocal players. No need to worry about xyzzy- if he is a henchman, we'll find out soon after we eliminate the first one. If he is not participating during the Day, I think most likely he would not be participating at Night either. The question was raised by someone whether xyzzy would be default-killed as a no-show; I am strongly against that. Because if he turns out innocent, we will lose another valuable player (number-wise), and it'll be another advantage for the baddies.

Originally Posted by Lommy

Well, the first thing I have to say is that I don't quite understand where all this suspicion towards me has come from. There seems to be few actual points against me, but still most people seem to be suspecting me. I can't help thinking that there's one (or two) henchmen hiding in this ill-based consensus of suspicion and laughing to themself/ves.

Originally Posted by Lommy

There are, as far as I know, three actual points against me. One is that I'm friendly. Second is that I'm stating the obvious. Well, what can I say? "Trust me, I'm not friendly, actually I'm quite evil!"? The third point was that as a wolf I might have killed Menel. I can hardly judge that - for some reason I haven't needed to think about it very much.

Originally Posted by Lommy

I did not say I don't want to be accused of thinking you're guilty. I said that I don't want to be accused of making a conclusion that "because Menel died, Mac must be guilty".

I get the feeling that Lommy is beginning to crack under pressure. Of course, anyone who is being accused is going to defend themselves, but it almost seems like she's trying too hard. When she says "I innocent," it doesn't seem completely sincere to me.

Originally Posted by Lommy

sounded very wolvish to me. I can't tell why but it just made a chill run down my spine. Sounds just like something a wolf would say...

So often there are those "wolfish" comments that makes us thing: hmmm. But I didn't get that feeling from Mac's comment. This just seems like a botched attempt to direct attention off of her and onto Mac..

Nogrod has suspected Lommy since Day 1, and now with this increasing pressure on her, I do not think they are on the same side...which actually does decrease my suspicions on him. But his whole analysis on Mac makes me uneasy...he's a bit too confident to assume that Mac is no worse than a villian and we should ignore him. It is never a good idea to completely ignore anyone. Now, if Lommy is a henchman, then Nogrod probably is not...though he could be just as easily a Villain who accidentally helped take out one of his own. But if Lommy is not a henchman, then I would definitely watch out for Nogrod...

There's something funny about that Volo. I'm not sure why, but his behaviour seems odd to me. I don't know if I should be suspicious of that, but I'd like to keep an eye on him...

[Thinlómien]

Let's truly hope that the villain does not count as a henchman in the end or we're truly going to lose if we (you...) continue this way.

Originally Posted by Volo

I highly doubt that Menel was really after Brinniel, so much that he'd have dreamed about her, or then Lommy forgets that the Scientist didn't get to dream on Night1.

S/he didn't? Well, then you can forget that point about Brinniel and then we're in more trouble than I thought we were.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Who else do you think tried to contact her/his henchmen yesterDay? Remember that in a small island like this the villain needs to do that because otherwise her/his own henchmen might kill her/him.

Should I reconsider what I think of you? This sounds very henchman-ish: calling the attention from hunting the henchmen to hunting the villain. As far as I know, we have no need to lynch the villain - especially as we can't afford killing too many un-henchmen. The villain is, of course, a threat, but I don't think we should be concentrating on him/her that much.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Firstly it seems that she has really spent some time analysing the henchmen position (#45). It was a bit too elaborate coming from just an innocent trying to think a bit what the baddies might have thought.

Says who? I'm getting worried about you...

Originally Posted by Legate

Comrade Lommy started to act a little bit touchy now, and in the quoted part she as a henchman could very, let's say, classically, try to draw away our attention to the fact that "we must lynch a baddie today", and thus forgetting the matter that was discussed before - her suspiciousness.

*sigh* I can say it again: of course I want that you think about something else - it's not very constructive that 90% of the village is after one person, especially if the person in question is innocent...

Originally Posted by Nogrod

An innocent says, because I'm innocent you should leave me alone for you're hurting our common cause.

What about this?

Originally Posted by me

Of course I'd prefer you guys focusing your energies elsewhere and not accusing/suspecting an innocent girl - especially as we must lynch a baddie toDay if we don't want to lose.

(I'm not saying I must be innocent because I said that - I might have said that as a henchman as well - merely pointing that Nogrod's attack is a faulty one.)

Originally Posted by Nogrod

A civilian protests that the others have got it wrong or she calls for the actual suspicions to be brought forwards so that she can answer them if necessary.

How can one call fro something to be brought forwards that does not seem to exist? At that phase it seemed that suspecting me was the popular suspicion of the Day and no one hardly had any good reasons.

~*~

Originally Posted by Volo

With this I agree, she's also "too happy".

So you are not allowed to be neither aggressive nor enjoy argumenting... I'll keep that in mind...

Originally Posted by Brinn

But I didn't get that feeling from Mac's comment. This just seems like a botched attempt to direct attention off of her and onto Mac.

OMG. You people are getting a bit ridiculous now. Does this mean that if you're #1 suspect of other villagers you can't talk about your own suspicions without making your situation worse? This all seems too much like "Lommy, we suspect you, therefore you must not talk about your suspects or raise points against other players or try to get discussion going on other matters than your suspected guilt or talk about time or actually anything else than yourself: you can only defend yourself, but otherwise, please don't make us listen to that crap. Oh, and when you defend yourself, don't do it too aggressively, because then we think you're a jumpy wolf. And oh, don't use smileys, you shouldn't be happy because we're accusing you! Heavens, you might be trying to make us lower our guard with being too friendly!"

*a row of rolleyes-smileys* Just remember to look at this consensus after my death and you know where the henchmen are hiding. Hey, I could consider myself a martyr! An innocent who died so that the villagers realised how stupid they were and where the henchmen are hiding. Too bad I never liked martyrs. *more rolleyes-smileys*

I really suspect Nogrod and Mac, Volo is a bit suspicious as well. But I won't waste my time on elaborating those as the only purpose I seem to have in this village anymore is defending myself. Clearly, if I wrote about my suspicions "I'd be trying to get the attention away from myself". *even more rolleyes-smileys* Oh, and now of course someone of you comes and says in a kindergarten-voice "dear Lommy, we never meant it that way, you can talk about your suspicion, we'll pretend to listen"... *the rest of rolleyes-smileys that exist in this world*

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

As I said before, I don't have time to elaborate on anything much now, and I'm leaving for good. So, my vote. *points up at the post above mine* Now that did it. Trying too hard. Too touchy. Half-sad-jokingly. Overdoing that ("the rest of rolleyes-smileys that exist in this world"). That does not sound like innocent Lommy at all. I'm very careful after the Shasta-mistake, but I have to vote now and I daresay that I am more convinced in this case than I was back then. And no one looks more suspicious than her.

++Comrade Lommy

Have a nice rest of the Day.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The hench-hippie

Just remember to look at this consensus after my death and you know where the henchmen are hiding. Hey, I could consider myself a martyr! An innocent who died so that the villagers realised how stupid they were and where the henchmen are hiding.

No Lommy, you're not innocent and the villagers seem to be quite bright.

But surely one henchman is still missing. Although we don't need to worry about that so much as yet. Lommy's right that toDay's voting record will tell us who Lommy's mate in these crimes against humanity is.

Unless Xyzzy is the one. But I do doubt that as Lommy made an early vote on him on Day1 and that might have put an actual bandwagon rolling so that would have been a very dangerous move from her. Btw. nicely safe vote from the henchman on Day1.

EDIT: X'd with Lommy

[Volo]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Concerning Lommy.

Our student activist Mac did indeed raise some noteworthy points against her (#47). I would add two things. Firstly it seems that she has really spent some time analysing the henchmen position (#45). It was a bit too elaborate coming from just an innocent trying to think a bit what the baddies might have thought. It sounded like a henchman who had already thought these things through a gazillion times during the Night and now used parts of that reasoning. Secondly I'd interpret a bit more into Lommy's "There seems to be few actual points against me" than Mac who only says it's suspiciously unspecific or half-hearted. I mean, why would an innocent phrase herself like that? Lommy's is the way a baddie thinks.

I messed up going to sleep. (I'll go after this post, promise.)

Here just to say that I don't agree at all with this point. It is completely reasonable for an innocent person to try to figure out why the baddies kill the person they kill - we all know that. I myself thought of the reasons exactly the same way and I'm innocent, so to me at least that makes Lommy no more guilty.

Are you saying that Lommy's guess is more correct than the other guesses so far and therefore showing that you also thought like this? That would mean that you have a part in selecting Menel as the victim.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I am starting to be confused on some things and that's a poor omen, Comrades. But let's follow the plan and fulfill it by 150%, as I said...
Wait. We have not prepared the plan. Okay, so let's move step by step.

Comrade Volo - the idea of Comrades Mac and Nogrod being villains or henchmen or both does not sound as illogical, however, if either of them is a villain, it's not of that much concern to us (quite the opposite - we should ignore him, as he would probably try to Cobble us). But Comrade Mac seems quite genuine to me lately, and though his behavior at start could have been one of a Villain (especially his reaction to Comrade Brinniel about lynching Comrade Nogrod), the way he acted toDay and in the second part of yesterDay makes me think that he is not a villain (his behavior is very nontypical for a villain). Comrade Nogrod acted half-in-role half-seriously from the very beginning, which a Villain could do, but his contributions were helpful and logical ones. Anyway: I don't suspect any of these two of being henchmen, at least at this time - at maximum, one of them could be a villain.
Speaking of that, Comrade Volo's chaotic and dark-horsish behavior could also be that of a Villain. But again, the Villain is probably not of much importance to us. Only - as Comrade Nogrod now pointed out - if he is counted among the Henchmen in the final count. However, I wouldn't even play with the idea of lynching Comrade Xyzzy, at least until he shows. If he shows.

But Comrade Lommy did not at all convince me of her innocence. Quite the opposite, her behavior resembles one of an imperialist agent surrounded by KGB. Especially this:

Originally Posted by товарищ ломмы

Well, if you want to phrase it like that... Of course I'd prefer you guys focusing your energies elsewhere and not accusing/suspecting an innocent girl - especially as we must lynch a baddie toDay if we don't want to lose.

Comrade Lommy started to act a little bit touchy now, and in the quoted part she as a henchman could very, let's say, classically, try to draw away our attention to the fact that "we must lynch a baddie today", and thus forgetting the matter that was discussed before - her suspiciousness. As a henchman, saying this "wise counsel" would help her to disappear out of our sight and hide. Second thing that does not fit to me much is the behavior - if she were someone else, her touched attitude would be okay. "Well, if you want to phrase it like that... Of course I'd prefer you guys focusing your energies elsewhere and not accusing/suspecting an innocent girl." But innocent Lommy does not behave like that when she is questioned.

All in all: let's wait for those who have not spoken already (Comrade Brinniel... and I am not even thinking about Comrade xyzzy). I'll probably have to vote early in the morning, once again (after some nine hours), and won't be back from then; and don't expect anything much long from me in the morning (depends on how I wake up, but...). If you post too long things I might not even be able to read them fully, which would be indeed discouraging.

X-ed with Nogrod's last one and Volo.