The Route of the Ring

[William Cloud Hicklin]

He was also I'm sure thinking of the fate of Thrain, who bore a lesser Ring too close to southern Mirkwood.......

[Mithadan]

Well now. I'm pleased this subject garnered a bit of attention. To be honest, I expected no more than a comment or two.

This thread has splintered into multiple issues. Given the nature of this place that is unsurprising. At any rate, I'd like to add a few comments on some of these matters.

I don't believe Gandalf "wanted" to enter Moria. I doubt that anyone other than a Dwarf would have desired to do so at that time. However, he clearly "felt" it was likely that the Fellowship's course would take them through Moria. As some have commented, perhaps he wished to evade detection for a time and take the road less travelled. I would like to suggest that, apart from his wishes and his strategies, perhaps Gandalf "had to" enter Moria. Great forces were astir at that time. All of the plans and courses of the Powers were coming to a head. Either Sauron would prevail, and all would become dark (until perhaps the Valar roused themselves and took a direct interest in Middle Earth), or the end of the "Elder" days was at hand, and the time of Man's dominion had arrived.

I know that Tolkien uses the term "Elder Days" to mean the First Age. I do not intend this usage here. Instead, I use the term to refer to the time that the ancient things and powers yet walked in Middle Earth and were not yet departing or waning to become the stuff of tales and legend. If Frodo suceeded in his quest, all such ancientry would be swept away as Elrond and Galadriel predicted. No longer would the Valar or even Morgoth and Sauron work their powers directly on the Lands of Man. In order for this to occur, one certain obstacle, a power from the forgotten past, had to be dealt with: the Balrog.

So perhaps, in order to fulfill his duties, and to advance the Quest, Gandalf was fated to enter Moria and slay the Balrog. He didn't want to do it. He "had to" do it, whether consciously or not.

As to the viability of routes other than Moria, even Celeborn criticizes Gandalf's choice. "Gandalf fell from wisdom into folly, going needlessly into the net of Moria."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Meriadoc1961

I believe there is a statement made by Aragorn to the effect that "Gandalf clearly wished to enter Lorien."

That does not have to mean that Gandalf really wanted to do that. Aragorn (if he said it) only thought that Gandalf wanted to. And that's not to say that we don't know what Gandalf thought: there could have been an agreement to go to Lórien, but Gandalf went there unwillingly (cf. above). It's just a speculation, though, as it was said earlier.

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

He was also I'm sure thinking of the fate of Thrain, who bore a lesser Ring too close to southern Mirkwood.......

One technical note: I wouldn't use the word "lesser" in this case. It was one of the Seven, and the only thing that was "greater" was the One. Thus, you would create two cathegories, one "lesser" (all Rings except the One) and one "greater" (the One). It was the Seven, Three and Nine and the One that were "greater"; the "lesser" were something else (ref.: Shadows of the Past, Gandalf's speech about the Rings).

Originally Posted by Mithadan

I don't believe Gandalf "wanted" to enter Moria. I doubt that anyone other than a Dwarf would have desired to do so at that time. However, he clearly "felt" it was likely that the Fellowship's course would take them through Moria. As some have commented, perhaps he wished to evade detection for a time and take the road less travelled. I would like to suggest that, apart from his wishes and his strategies, perhaps Gandalf "had to" enter Moria.

Interesting thought and possible. But I don't want to speculate about this one, not that it was not interesting, but I'll leave it to someone else. I would like to focus only on the first part. From my point of view, it seems clear that Gandalf preferred the way through Moria above everything else (and now I am speaking only of his own choice, all high-power-leading and similar aspects aside). One similar part was quoted here already a few posts earlier by radagastly, and this, I believe, speaks even more clearly:

Originally Posted by FotR, The Ring Goes South

"Who knows indeed!" said Gandalf. "But there is another way, and not by the pass of Caradhras: the dark and secret way that we have spoken of."

This is a part of a dialogue between Gandalf and Aragorn before the company decides to go through Caradhras. When I read the entire paragraph, I get the feeling - and I'm leaving for you to decide - that Gandalf, in fact, was thinking all the way "The best thing would be to go through Moria!", and he did not advise it only because no one else wanted that (cf. the quote by radagastly). I imagine it almost the same way as he advised the White Council to attack Dol Guldur (and this, interestingly, brings me to similar area of thinking and could go well together with Mithadan's ideas from the last post - because as we know Gandalf, he was not lead only by his own conscious choices in the important moments).

[The Might]

...or maybe they could have flown with the help of the Eagles all the way to Mount Doom?

No, but seriously now, I wouldn't go so far so as to speculate that Gandalf "had to" use that way, especially since it wasn't his decision only in the end, and the outcome could have been different.
I think this would be the topic of another thread.

Actually, if I think about it, Moria was a strange choice. Gandalf definitely felt something was wrong down there, since they had had no news from the Dwarves there, it was clear something had happened, but not what.

The Gap of Rohan was more dangerous, since reaching it meant going further on the road through Dunland and by the time the Fellowship would have reached Rohan, Saruman would have already sent his troops to attack Theoden.

But I just had another idea.
We know that:

[FONT=&quot]Only here [the Fords], south of Isengard, was it possible for large forces, especially those heavily armed or mounted, to cross the river. ~ UT, The Battle of the Fords of Isen[/FONT]

So it was not possible for heavily armed Uruks to cross anywhere else, but what about the Fellowship?
They didn't have heavy armor (ok, maybe Gimli would have had to give up some stuff) so they could try.

Also we are told:

[FONT=&quot]Beyond the Gap the land between Isen and Adorn was nominally part of the realm of Rohan; but though Folcwine had reclaimed it, driving out the Dunlendings that had occupied it, the people that remained were largely of mixed blood, and their loyalty to Edoras was weak: the slaying of their lord, Freca, by King Helm was still remembered. Indeed at this time they were more disposed to side with Saruman, and many of their warriors had joined Saruman's forces. In any case there was no way into their land from the west except for bold swimmers. [/FONT]

Well, Hobbits and Dwarves aren't bold swimmers, but I'm sure that with help from the others they would have made it across eventually.

So why not go from Hollin cross the Glanduin, do into Enedwaith, preferably closer to the coast, cross the Isen (or the Isen and the Adorn, depending on what place would be chosen for the crossing), pass the Druwaith Iaur and finally enter Gondor.

Of course the plan was not really taken into consideration, since the road might seem too long, but wouldn't it have been an option?
Or option 2, after crossing the Isen south of the Fords, head east towards Helm's Deep. Definitely they would have made it in time this way as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I believe actually the reason why it was decided that the Fellowship should not go through the Gap of Isen or southwards at all was that it was dangerous to bring the Ring too close to Orthanc. It has nothing to do with Saruman's attack on Théoden - whenever Saruman would have learned about the Ring coming near, he wouldn't care about any Théodens but do everything to get it. Imagine ten thousand Orcs sweeping the land westward of Isen. And even if not: If Uglúk and his party were able to track the Fellowship and catch two Hobbits hundred miles from Isengard, how much easier would that be near Isengard. Frodo could maybe escape using the Ring, Gimli, Legolas and Aragorn would have been slain alongside Boromir, the Hobbits would have been taken captive. The only one who could possibly resist somewhat longer would be Gandalf, but even his powers are not unlimited (I can imagine he could scare away a lesser troop of Orcs with fire, but a large group of "fighting Uruk-hai", probably forewarned by Saruman - "Kill the old man!" shouted Uglúk - would have in the end defeated him). And who knows, maybe Saruman himself would take part on such a dangerous mission when there was Gandalf involved and it was so close to his home.
And also, if the Fellowship were to go through Dunland, let us not forget that the Dunlanders were on good terms with Saruman (or: he had quite a lot of his people among them), and all these Crebains and stuff...
And concerning passing the Drúwaith Iaur, this path was too long.

All I just said is summed up by Gandalf when Boromir asks exactly the way you did:

Originally Posted by FotR

"(...) let us journey southwards, until we come to the Gap of Rohan, where men are friendly to my people, taking the road that I followed on my way hither. Or we might pass by and cross the Isen into Langstrand and Lebennin, and so come to Gondor from the regions nigh to the sea."
"Things have changed since you came north, Boromir," answered Gandalf. "Did you not hear what I told you of Saruman? With him I may have business of my own ere all is over. But the Ring must not come near Isengard, if that can by any means be prevented. The Gap of Rohan is closed to us while we go with the Bearer."
"As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless. Yet they would not be safe. The watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them..."

[Mithadan]

All very true, Legate, but what I posit that Gandalf, intentionally or not, disregarded was a route to the North of Moria, the Gladden River Pass. Clearly, Celeborn believed another route was available. Surely he was aware of the risks presented by passage through the Gap of Rohan. Undoubtedly he did not believe the Fellowship would retrace its steps all the way back to the High Pass. Nor would he expect the Fellowship to hunker down on the West side of the Mountains and wait for a Spring thaw to attempt to cross the Redhorn Gate.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

That's an interesting idea. A common reader, I believe, understands it the way that Celeborn simply thought that the Fellowship should not go through Moria - and which way they were supposed to take is another problem. But since the word needlessly is there, Celeborn's words cannot be reduced only on a negative sentence.

If you read the whole discussion with the Lord and the Lady, it gives (to me) the impression that C&G were expecting the Fellowship to come through Caradhras. There is this moment:

"Tell us now the full tale!" said Celeborn.
Then Aragorn recounted all that had happened upon the pass of Caradhras, and in the days that followed...

Aragorn starts with Caradhras, i.e. he starts with explaining why they could not pass Caradhras. This could mean that Celeborn knew that they were supposed to pass Caradhras, and Aragorn only explains why they did not. He is starting with Caradhras and does not think it necessary to include the reason why they passed Caradhras and not, for example, the High Pass or the Gladden Pass or even Gap of Rohan. He starts at the point to which he believes the others know the story. If he thought that C&G would have any questions on this like "Whoa, wait, and how did you get to Caradhras?", he would have started with explaining something else. It is, of course, possible that Aragorn (not being informed of everything) presumed C&G know the plan while they in fact did not (and they did not interrupt him because they considered it to be too impolite). But if Celeborn expected the Fellowship to go through Caradhras, looking at the word "needlesly", as you mentioned it, is in place. This suggests that although the preferred route, Caradhras, was closed, Celeborn knew of some B-route that was better than Moria. And this is indeed very strange. For if there was one, such as the Gladden Pass, and Gandalf or Aragorn knew about it, why did they not use it?
Aragorn says to Gandalf that they should try Moria only if other passages are closed:

Originally Posted by The Ring Goes South

But let us not speak of it again! Not yet. Say nothing to the others I beg, not until it is plain that there is no other way.

Then they simply return from Caradhras and go to Moria. At the beginning of the next chapter, most people speak the way that it seems that there is no way forward. Some of them don't know, of course, like the Hobbits, what paths are there, but still. Frodo:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

But how can I return without shame - unless there is indeed no other way, and we are already defeated?

And to this, Gandalf responds with the words that there is a way:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

"There is a way that we may attempt," said Gandalf. "I thought from the beginning, when first I considered this journey, that we should try it. But it is not a pleasant way, and I have not spoken of it to the Company before. Aragorn was against it, until the pass over the mountains had at least been tried."

Note the slight change of the sense of Aragorn's words. In the quote above, Aragorn says that they should not speak about Moria until it's clear that there is no other way. Here, Gandalf interpretates it that Aragorn wanted to try the Pass, but nothing more. I am not to say that Gandalf intentionally twisted Aragorn's words, but it's a thing worth mentioning. It simply seems that there is no other way. Why not? Gandalf himself says it:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

Since our open attempt on the mountain-pass our plight has become more desperate, I fear. I see now little hope, if we do not soon vanish from sight for a while, and cover our trail. Therefore I advise that we should go neither over the mountains, nor round them, but under them. That is a road at any rate that the Enemy will least expect us to take.

And when in next moment, they hear the wolves coming, he says:

Originally Posted by A Journey in the Dark

It is as I said. The hunt is up! Even if we live to see the dawn, who now will wish to journey south by night with the wild wolves on his trail?

It is as I said. So, the conclusion is: there could have been a B-path, the Gladden Pass for example, but obviously after the attempt to pass Caradhras Gandalf thought that it should not be used. It is possible that they did not agree with Aragorn on this, and that Gandalf (judging from his words) simply knew (presumed) in forward that once they try one of the passes, they couldn't use any other later. Simply: "Closing one pass for us means that the Enemy is/will be closing all of them the same/similar way if we try." This is logical and it connects the words of Aragorn with the way Gandalf interpretates them, though Aragorn maybe did not believe all the ways are closed until he saw the wolves. And even then, as we know, he did not like to go to Moria. And Celeborn's opinion could have very well been the same, from what we hear.

[The Might]

"As for the longer road: we cannot afford the time. We might spend a year in such a journey, and we should pass through many lands that are empty and harbourless. Yet they would not be safe. The watchful eyes both of Saruman and of the Enemy are on them..."

I think here you have the problem of seeing this from 2 totally different points of view.
In my post above I talked abut this possibility as an outsider person, that knows well what happened afterwards, while you answered it from Gandalf's perspective. He hoped t pass Caradhras without problems, go to Lorien, then through the Marshes and maybe use sme unknown path to enter Mordor or whatever. Theoretically.
But really would this road I though about have been less safe then all the Ringbearer went through, Moria and the Balrog, Orcs and a Nazgul attacking them from the eastern shore of Anduin, a dangerous passage through the Marshes, Ithilien filled with Sauron's minions and finally the Morgul Vale.

Was this really in the end more safe then going through Southern Gondor to Minas Tirith and then somehow to Mount Doom? I expect Gandalf knew about the Dead so Aragorn summoning them on the way to MT is definitely very likely. Also, the road might seem longer, but would it have really been longer?

And I repeat, I am asking this as an outside observer, and not thinking about what the Fellowship thought.