Serving animals in HOBBIT film

[Sauron the White]

Aiwendil said

The fact that JRRT needed the money and thus sold the film rights doesn't mean that he gave up the right to have an opinion on future adaptations.

Of course one always has the right to their opinion. Unless one signs a contract with a clause that demands their silence, an opinion is free and interfers with nobody else or their rights or property. I imagine one could argue that one sells total rights to someone else and cashes the check and spends the money, decency and propriety may demand that you take a low profile regarding the other persons exercising of their rights. After all, you did sign the deal and give them complete control in perpetuity. But that is a matter of individual decision.

I think Hemingway had it right. He said that the best way to sell a book to a film studio was on an otherwise deserted beach at midnight. The author tosses the book towards the producer while he in turn tosses a briefcase filled with cash to the author. Then the two never bother each other again.

[Meriadoc1961]

TheGreatElvenWarrior wrote:

"Hmmm... that is a good point, but I didn't think of Tom as a reincarnation of Iluvatar, he gives hope to the Hobbits though. Especially when they got trapped by the Barrow-wight, and he also saved them... now I wouldn't want to be trapped in a plane for a flight that has some long hours with Frodo, but not with Bombadil."

The reason I wrote that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar (Eru) is because of the exchange Frodo has with Tom:

"Who are you, Master?" he asked

"Eh, what?" said Tom sitting up, and his eyes glinting in the gloom. "Don't you know my name yet? That's the only answer. Tell me, who are you, alone, yourself and nameless? But you are young and I am old. Eldest, that's what I am. mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless -- before the Dark Lord came from Outside."

Additionally, this exchange took place between Frodo and Goldberry which also influenced my opinion that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar:

"Fair lady!" said Frodo again after a while. "Tell me, if my asking does not seem foolish, who is Tom Bombadil??

"He is," said Goldberry. staying her swift movements and smiling.

Later on she continues by saying, "Tom Bombadil is the Master."

"He has no fear. Tom Bombadil is master."

Now compare this to a conversation that Moses had with God in Exodus 3:13-15. Tolkien was heavily influenced by the Bible as he was a Catholic:

And Moses said unto God, "Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me unto you'; and they shall say to me, 'What is His name? What shall I say unto them?'

And God said unto Moses, "I AM THAT I AM": and He said, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'I AM has sent me unto you.'"

And God said moreover unto Moses, "Thus shall you say unto the children of Israel, 'Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me unto you': this is My name forever, and this is My memorial unto all generations."

So we have God telling Moses, "I AM THAT I AM." Goldberry says in reference to Tom, "He is."


Merry

[Sauron the White]

Tolkien was heavily influenced by the Bible as he was a Catholic:

As someone born and raised Catholic complete with 12 years in a Catholic school, I can tell you that of all the Christian faiths the Catholic Church depends less on the Bible than most other faiths. It means far more to various Protestant sects.

Of course, Tokien could have been very heavy on the Bible. Perhaps someone does know this and can set it straight. I just wanted to correct the impression that because he was a Catholic it would make sense that he was then heavilly influenced by the Bible. The two do not necessarily go together.

[Meriadoc1961]

Sauron the White,

That was a very honest admission. I thank you for your forthrightness.

Tolkien was very much responsible for converting his good friend, C. S. Lewis, out of atheism, as they met weekly with other men at a local pub. This is part of my reasoning that Tom was an incarnation of Iluvatar, just as I see Gandalf, Aragorn and Frodo all as messiah figures, but that should probably be discussed in another thread.

Merry

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Perhaps someone does know this and can set it straight. I just wanted to correct the impression that because he was a Catholic it would make sense that he was then heavilly influenced by the Bible. The two do not necessarily go together.

If you're looking for literary influences I'd say the Bible is a long way down the list.

Beowulf, The Eddas, The Kalevala, The Mabinogion, the Icelandic Sagas, the works of William Morris & fairy stories generally were all far greater influences.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Perhaps you believe that the upper classes or the better people have more rights and should get more benefits than us uncouth mouth breathers? If so, I have no sympathy with that elitist attitude.

Then let's use another example: if an impoverished HIV-positive mother in Africa finds she cannot possibly care for another baby, and then a wealthy Hollywood celebrity offers to buy -er - "pay an adoption fee for" her child, and in her desperation she accepts: is that really voluntary?

You can pick any analogy or hypothetical you like: people in financial distress find themselves forced -yes, forced- to hock or sell prized possessions thay would not willingly part with.

Some indication of Tolkien's desperation can be seen from the terms, or rather the absent terms- he retained no creative control, or assurances of "art;" nor was he able to include the permanent ban on sale to Disney he wanted; nor really was there much Cash: although UA paid $250,000, Tolkien only received 10 grand, the rest (96%) being taxed away: and of course the 10k he realized went to pay the original taxes.

Moreover, his recorded statement at the time reinforces the essential point- Tolkien didn't *want* movies made of his books.

[Sauron the White]

WCH - I do not want to get nailed again for being off topic. But it seems like many internet discussions, this would come down to a definition of things like "Coercion... voluntary .... force" and those other things key to the discussion.

I simply see Tolkien as absolutely no different than any other person in the world who has wants and needs and has a reason to obtain cash to satisfy them. I see ones tax obligation as no different than ones food bill, utilities, or clothing bills. Its all on the side of the accounting ledger labeled as EXPENSES.

We could argue all day as to if JRRT wanted movies made of his books. There is one simple fact here which stands above the others in this discussion. JRRT did indeed sell the film rights under very broad conditions which turned out not to be very favorable to him. He did what he did and nobody held Lucca Brazi's gun to his head.

What I do find interesting is that you quote a figure of $250,000.00 paid to JRRT. That is the highest estimate I have seen. I find it quite interesting that Saul Zaentz was able to purchase these rights for $10,000.00 (I think that is the right figure - anyone have a different one?) a relatively short time later. Maybe the idea took hold that the movies were unfilmable and Zaeltz got himself one of the best deals since the purchase of Manhattan island.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Zaentz has indeed boasted that his purchase of the Tolkien rights was a bargain which has profited him greatly. Shortly after the projected John Boorman version fizzled out, UA was bought out by TransAmerica, which promptly fired most of its executives, including those behind the Tolkien deal. New management regarded the LR and Hobbit rights as wasted money, and were happy to unload them for whatever they could get.

The traditional figure for Tolkien's sale for years has been $10,000. However, about the time FR came out, the Times of London reported that the true contract price was $250,000 (actually they reported 103,000 pounds.)

Both 'traditions' are correct. A quarter-million is what UA paid, and 10 grand is what Tolkien got- the difference going to HM Government.


*******

Tolkien's attitude can be illustrated as well by an account of his seeing a school stage production of The Hobbit in Oxford which he had given permission for (without seeing the script). He apparently enjoyed himself greatly and smiled broadly when his own dialogue and incidents were enacted; but scowled and muttered under his breath at deviation and 'invention.'

[Lord Halsar]

By God! This thread has certainly gotten off topic in more places than I can list!