Split Personality?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

However, Tolkien did allow for situations in which one is overwhelmed by an evil far greater than one's power to resist. And he made the case that no blame is to be laid in such situations. As for the anti-ring, the presumed coming of Eru would eradicate evil from Creation - although it would likely not touch upon the free will to further choose between good and evil.

It's different if you are overwhelmed against your will, but a device that makes you evil? If Melkor did make orcs from elves, seeing the behaviour of the elves, he may have had some that were somewhat amenable to the process, though by a thousand slices.

Hm, I must admit I don't follow .

Th 'good' did not lack for power. Gandalf could have used much more power than he did. Saruman could have been made to bow before him. But Gandalf showed restraint and so simply made Saruman mostly impotent.

Then again, the comparison is likely false, since Eru is infinite and we have zero clues about Him, other than Him being the "one wholly free Will and Agent" (letter #156). Moreover, Tolkien stated in Myths Transformed that any finite being has weaknesses - being implied that this does not apply to an infinite being.

My point is that if power corrupts, then absolute power corrupts absolutely (hmm, I should coin that phrase ). Where not Melkor and Manwe brothers? Why then was Melkor corrupted and Manwe not? Would that not indicate that it's not the power, but the application thereof?

[Raynor]

It's different if you are overwhelmed against your will, but a device that makes you evil?

However, this device isn't any object, seeing the amount of power it has, its special relation to Sauron and even some presumed "intelligence"/activity of its own. I would also expect a great concentration of Melkor's marring throughout Arda to have a somewhat similar effect.

If Melkor did make orcs from elves, seeing the behaviour of the elves, he may have had some that were somewhat amenable to the process, though by a thousand slices.

Well... maybe .

The 'good' did not lack for power. Gandalf could have used much more power than he did. Saruman could have been made to bow before him. But Gandalf showed restraint and so simply made Saruman mostly impotent.

I see. By Free Folk I didn't previously included our istari friend(s). We should bear in mind that the elves came rather close to this, through their Rings of power that counter the marring and the decay.

hmm, I should coin that phrase

You should, it sounds catchy .

Were not Melkor and Manwe brothers?Why then was Melkor corrupted and Manwe not?

True, but Melkor had greater power and Manwe had a more special relation with Eru.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

True, but Melkor had greater power and Manwe had a more special relation with Eru.

Right. But my point is that 'power corrupts' is either always true or only sometimes true. Manwe and Eru would indicate that power, in and of itself, does not always corrupt.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

But my point is that 'power corrupts' is either always true or only sometimes true. Manwe and Eru would indicate that power, in and of itself, does not always corrupt.

Well, I would say that a more proper phrasing would be "greater power increases the likelihood of corruption - unless balanced".

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, I would say that a more proper phrasing would be "greater power increases the likelihood of corruption - unless balanced".

Graphing power versus corruption would not show any correlation. One who is corrupted may seek power, but at every level, from Melkor to Sandyman, we have contemporaries that, having the same or similar levels of power, are not corrupted.

It's what you do with it - as you referenced previously via Spiderman.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Graphing power versus corruption would not show any correlation. One who is corrupted may seek power, but at every level, from Melkor to Sandyman, we have contemporaries that, having the same or similar levels of power, are not corrupted.

True, because what is left out is the balancing part - be it consciousness or grace manifested in inner or exterior fortunate conditions. The subsequent deeds and their moral quality are a result of this balancing.