Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

Originally Posted by Essex

I diagree - because of this one line from ''The Istari' which I'll repeat again.

with the consent of Eru they sent members of their high order, but clad in bodies as of Men, real and not feigned, but subject of the fears and pain and weariness of earth, able to hunger and thirst and be slain.

This has been my argument all along. And no one has persuaded me against it yet.

Nobody has ever answered how Sauron, in his weakest form, was able to significantly increase the Witch King's power. The Witch King, even in his greatest form with the Ring in Sauron's hand, failed to make a great impact in the second age. Yet we must believe a weaker Witch King can topple Gandalf in his greatest form?

[Essex]

you don't have to believe me. It's just my point of view - Gandalf can be slain, Tolkien says so. I'm not going on about who is more powerful than the other - I'm just trying to explain that it's not always the greatest foe who wins a battle. Usually, yes - but not always.

If one says that so and so (Gandalf) is stronger than so and so (WK) then he must win in battle then this is very 1 dimensional thinking.

Originally Posted by Essex

you don't have to believe me. It's just my point of view - Gandalf can be slain, Tolkien says so. I'm not going on about who is more powerful than the other - I'm just trying to explain that it's not always the greatest foe who wins a battle. Usually, yes - but not always.

If one says that so and so (Gandalf) is stronger than so and so (WK) then he must win in battle then this is very 1 dimensional thinking.

Gandalf is not just a vulnerable human being, otherwise his burns suffered against the Balrog would have killed him far earlier. Plus, his battle against the Balrog lasted 2 days at least, which no ordinary human body could cope with. Yes, Gandalf does eventually die as a result, but a normal human body would not have sustained the fire of a Balrog, & thus he would have died instantly. We cannot therefore assume Gandalf is as vulnerable as what the Silmarillion makes out with confidence. His Maiar powers obviously shield his body to a large extent, or at least allow him to heal very quickly.

In Middle Earth history, can you think of any examples whereby the weaker baddie defeats a so called mightier goodie?

[Essex]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Gandalf is not just a vulnerable human being, otherwise his burns suffered against the Balrog would have killed him far earlier. Plus, his battle against the Balrog lasted 2 days at least, which no ordinary human body could cope with. Yes, Gandalf does eventually die as a result, but a normal human body would not have sustained the fire of a Balrog, & thus he would have died instantly. We cannot therefore assume Gandalf is as vulnerable as what the Silmarillion makes out with confidence. His Maiar powers obviously shield his body to a large extent, or at least allow him to heal very quickly.

In Middle Earth history, can you think of any examples whereby the weaker baddie defeats a so called mightier goodie?

And I'm happy with you ASSUMING that as you say - as long as you're not just categorically TELLING me, as others have, that Gandalf would have won against the WK with 100% certainty. I am using 'Canon' to explain my point - i.e. what Tolkien himself wrote about the Istari. Your point above, (and my views on whether the WK could have defeated Gandalf as well) are conjecture - what COULD have happened. I just can't agree with posters who say with the utmost certainty what WOULD have happened if they did actually fight.

As to your second question, I can turn it around to show the two biggest 'victories' of weaker goodies vs baddies in the books. A 'weak' hobbit helps defeat the Witch King himself (how ironic is that statement in this thread), and two 'weak' hobbits defeat Sauron.

Originally Posted by Essex

As to your second question, I can turn it around to show the two biggest 'victories' of weaker goodies vs baddies in the books. A 'weak' hobbit helps defeat the Witch King himself (how ironic is that statement in this thread), and two 'weak' hobbits defeat Sauron.

Tolkein appears to have an obssession with the weaker goodie overcoming the mightier baddie. But not so, it appears, the other way round.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Essex

And I'm happy with you ASSUMING that as you say - as long as you're not just categorically TELLING me, as others have, that Gandalf would have won against the WK with 100% certainty. I am using 'Canon' to explain my point - i.e. what Tolkien himself wrote about the Istari. Your point above, (and my views on whether the WK could have defeated Gandalf as well) are conjecture - what COULD have happened. I just can't agree with posters who say with the utmost certainty what WOULD have happened if they did actually fight.

As to your second question, I can turn it around to show the two biggest 'victories' of weaker goodies vs baddies in the books. A 'weak' hobbit helps defeat the Witch King himself (how ironic is that statement in this thread), and two 'weak' hobbits defeat Sauron.

Gandalf would have slaughtered the Witch-King, no question.

I disagree with your examples, by the way. I don't see any of this underdog theme in Tolkien at all. I have no idea how Mansun can claim Tolkien is "obsessed" with the idea.

Originally Posted by obloquy

I disagree with your examples, by the way. I don't see any of this underdog theme in Tolkien at all. I have no idea how Mansun can claim Tolkien is "obsessed" with the idea.

The main theme of the LOTR is based on how a group of Hobbits step up & do great deeds against the odds to help defeat Sauron. Some other examples would be :-

Witch King vs Merry & Eowyn

The defeat of Morgoth

Pippin slays a troll

The attack at Weathertop - the Hobbits & Aragorn vs 5 Nazgul

Rocky Balboa vs Ivan Drago (the ultimate David vs Goliath!)


There are no examples in the history of Middle Earth where the mightier goodie has been defeated by a weaker baddie though. Which makes the case for a Gandalf victory virtually certain.

[Groin Redbeard]

In the book the Witch King fled before Gandalf could do battle with him, and Pippen came to get Gandalf to save Faramir. In the end I think Gandalf would arise as the victor.