The Balrog vs The Witch King

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

So, he has to conceal his power as he had done when he found Grima.

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul. What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.'

and

'There, put in command by Sauron, he is given added demonic force.'

The first one says the Witch-King, because of his command given by Sauron has an added demonic force (I take 'demonic force' to mean that he's scarier...as the entire part is about the fear the Witch-King inspires).

The second one says that because the Witch-King, because he was put in command by Sauron, he is given added power (that power being 'demonic force.')

Then again, the main differences between these phrasings is not the presence or absence of "an" [I fail to see why each phrasing would exclusively warrant just that one interpretation you gave them] but the meaning of "demonic", which makes this exercise rather useless.

So, clearly the Witch-King must have done some sort of 'gate-busting' sorcery before Pelennor Fields, or he would not have been known to people as being a sorcerer.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

And the Witch-King, seeing Gandalf was standing in his way completely unafraid, leaves that situation to go tend to another.

It's not because he sees him unafraid that he leaves.

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by Mansun

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced. And then, what his power really was. Gandalf is incidental, and only used to bolster the arguments pro and con, in the posts above.

As for the the WK versus the Balrog, I guess I am inclined to agree the Balrog would come out on top. The only possible caveat here is that the Witch King's power comes from Sauron, so we could not rule out completely an augmentation of the WK's power (something I believe that happened in the Pelennor Fields) to face a foe like the Balrog. But this is taking the speculation even farther... My point, however, is that the WK is not an independent power like the Balrog, but derives his power in large part from Sauron himself. This also implies that predicting his power from one case to the next might be difficult...

[obloquy]

The phrase's meaning does not hinge upon the "an," though the "an" is there only because Tolkien meant the phrase in a certain way. The sentence structure provides a very clear picture of what Tolkien meant, but I won't try to explain it in detail. However, note that he is talking about the Witch-King receiving the "force" and the command from two separate givers, as indicated by his need to specify that the Witch-King received the command from Sauron specifically. Before and after that interjection, Sauron is not the one effecting changes in the Witch-King's stature, it is the storyteller doing so. The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Originally Posted by Raynor

His power at that time, as it has been noted several times in this thread, last time by CSteefel, is mainly fear. That power, as The hunt for the ring, UT, informs us, cannot be in fact concealed, being the major drawback of using the nazgul.

Tolkien does not actually say this. He says this of the Nazgul, but the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others. You're right that the fear can't be concealed: so in the example of the Witch-King revealing himself that I provided below, what would you say he was previously concealing? Remember that this happened before Vol III and the Witch-King's alleged augmentation.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot.

What magic might have helped him? A lightning sword?

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand.

That's every bit as impressive as breaking a gate, right?

Originally Posted by davem

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand.

I think Raynor must assume that the breaking of the gate is representative of other particular powers the Witch-King would have been stupid not to use in prior encounters. Like a magical lasso or something, I guess. davem is correct, though, and his posts have been good. As have Boromir88's: the Witch-King accomplished all manner of death and destruction (which no other Nazgul did) prior to his presence in LotR, and Tolkien's reference to an increase of stature in Vol III is relative only to the Witch-King's stature in Vol I and Vol II, not his pre-LotR stature.

[CSteefel]

Originally Posted by obloquy

The storyteller gives the Witch-King an added demonic force in Vol III by having him receive command of an army from Sauron. That's what the sentence says. I am not twisting the phrase's meaning, I am gleaning its meaning from its structure.

Hmmm, why is giving somebody command of an army a "demonic force". If Tolkien had meant that, why not just say "Sauron gave the Witch King command of his armies". The adjective "demonic" doesn't make much sense when applied to an army of non-magical beings (Southrons, orcs and the like)...

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Hmmm, why is giving somebody command of an army a "demonic force". If Tolkien had meant that, why not just say "Sauron gave the Witch King command of his armies". The adjective "demonic" doesn't make much sense when applied to an army of non-magical beings (Southrons, orcs and the like)...

It's not applied to the army, it's applied to the Witch-King's presence, which is more open and prominent. The expression does not have to mean actual demon powers; in fact, I doubt Tolkien would ever have used the phrase to mean that. It conveys a sense of the Witch-King's presence on the battle field, which was at this time especially demonical.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Nope; not even a fraction of its efficacy and power. It is one of the occasions I repeatedly referred to when the WK uses his power at far lesser levels than the situation requires and his supposed power permits. Also, the timing of it, the fact that the WK bids his time for 14 days and uses it in his 25th hour, when Frodo is already on enemy land, beyond the waters he rightly fears, shows that this is more for show and spite than for practical uses.

So you're saying that the Witch-King's enhancement was the new ability to use his sorcery for practical purposes rather than merely show? Because striking a person dumb and shattering his sword is every bit as demonstrative of magical powers as assisting in breaking a gate.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I believe that's a false dichotomy. I see no reason why the phrase can't mean he received the force from Sauron too. While I agree that the phrase can be viewed from your point also, it is definitely not the only one, especially considering the larger context.

"The larger context" is narrative decisions, which you have, up until now, felt it prudent to completely ignore. The larger context is not how the War of the Ring played out, and what kinds of measures Sauron went to; all of that is covered in Tolkien's "historical" texts, where he makes no mention of Sauron literally enhancing the Witch-King's abilities. My analysis of the sentence structure is correct, and the interjection (regarding Sauron) is presented as a reason for the stated effect.

Originally Posted by Raynor

What different manners of death and destruction do you have in mind? And how do you know the other nazgul didn't do them?

Whatever means the Witch-King employed in his open war against Men and Elves prior to the LotR is what I had in mind. Tolkien isn't specific about them. Do you think it was solely this power of fear that made him capable of these conquests as king of his own realm? None of the other Nazgul have this kind of history, and it's because the Witch-King is "more powerful in all ways" than the others by nature, not because of this putative late-game enhancement.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Yes - & that's the point. Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary. Just because he hadn't whacked a Balrog up to that point doesn't prove he was suddenly gifted with extra power in Moria in order to do so. In the same way, just because the WK hadn't knocked over a big gate before doesn't prove he wasn't capable of doing it without a power up.

My problem with this argument is that its only a gate & doesn't need much effort to knock over if you've got a massive battering ram to hand. What other evidence is there for enhanced power? One could argue that if he had the power to smash a gate he should have avoided getting into hand to hand combat with that blonde bird & just zapped her. He tends to enjoy the experience of terrorising his victims & is very much a hands on kind of guy.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by CSteefel

It really is now centered on the Witch King and whether or not his power was enhanced.

I agree; the issue of the WK's power was a thorny one and it got this whole branch started.

Originally Posted by davem

Gandalf didn't go around busting bridges & killing Balrogs, but he could still do it when it was necessary.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions. As I mentioned:

What still remains unaddressed is that the WK use of magic during the times he encountered Frodo is far inferior to the Pelennor Fields. It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf. This is when he was closest to his ultimate goal in the mission, but failed to impress by magic, although it would have helped him a lot. The fact of the matter remains that, instead of confronting his enemies - as his power you attribute him at that time warranted -, he rather bids his time, waits for the morgul blade to take effect, flees from Aragorn and all that.

[Boromir88]

It is these times that I have called into question, not when WK met informants or Gandalf.~Raynor

But what this does show is that prior to the battle of Pelennor Fields the Witch-King was capable of using magic...so busting down a gate and lighting up a sword doesn't mean he suddenly had a boost of power. Why doesn't he use any of his sorcery when he encounters Frodo on Weathertop? I don't know, but he did us it when he encountered Gandalf on Weathertop. Or could it be that his task was different?

As I've said the Witch-King is hunting for the Ring, he's not out trying to kill anyone...not even the Ringbearer:

'They tried to pierce your heart with a Morgul-knife which remains in the wound. If they had succeeded, you would have become like they are, only weaker and under his command. You would have become a wraith under the dominion of the Dark Lord; and he would have tormented you for trying to keep his Ring; if any greater torment were possible than being robbed of it and seeing it on his hand.'~Many Meetings

Sending a jolt of fire from his eyes to fry Frodo wouldn't have been torment enough for Frodo. Sauron wanted this Ringbearer to suffer not have a quick and easy death.

That necessity was more than present previously and unlike Gandalf he had no restrictions.

But the quote above certainly makes it seem like Sauron limitted what the Witch-King was able to do. He wasn't trying to burn down the Shire or kill anyone who opposed him (he wasn't even supposed to kill the Ringbearer). He was to find out the location of the Ring and not only get the Ring, but also the Ringbearer, so the said Ringbearer could suffer.

At Pelennor Fields his is not limitted anymore. His objective isn't to bring people to Sauron to suffer...his objective is to completely trash Minas Tirith and kill all those who oppose him.

Gandalf indulged in far less impressive shows of power and yet he was still known as a wizard.

Aye, but Tolkien also refers to the Nazgul as sorcerers...and it is also the 'great wizard' Gandalf who calls the Witch-King a 'great sorcerer.'

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Boro

At Pelennor Fields his is not limitted anymore.

I know of no limitation of the mission of the WK. He was supposed to get the ring, that was his job. Irregardless of Gandalf's musings, the attack of the nazgul with the morgul blade had more to do with Frodo striking at him and crying the name of Varda than with a supposed addendum to his mission.

Aye, but Tolkien also refers to the Nazgul as sorcerers...and it is also the 'great wizard' Gandalf who calls the Witch-King a 'great sorcerer.'

I believe I have conveyed my point; I know of no minimum requirement of magic display in order to qualify as a sorcerer. Thus, implying that the WK must have displayed such powers before because he was called a sorcerer is uncalled for.

Originally Posted by obloquy

However, note that he is talking about the Witch-King receiving the "force" and the command from two separate givers, as indicated by his need to specify that the Witch-King received the command from Sauron specifically.

I believe that's a false dichotomy. I see no reason why the phrase can't mean he received the force from Sauron too. While I agree that the phrase can be viewed from your point also, it is definitely not the only one, especially considering the larger context.

That's every bit as impressive as breaking a gate, right?

Nope; not even a fraction of its efficacy and power. It is one of the occasions I repeatedly referred to when the WK uses his power at far lesser levels than the situation requires and his supposed power permits. Also, the timing of it, the fact that the WK bids his time for 14 days and uses it in his 25th hour, when Frodo is already on enemy land, beyond the waters he rightly fears, shows that this is more for show and spite than for practical uses.

the Witch-King accomplished all manner of death and destruction (which no other Nazgul did)

What different manners of death and destruction do you have in mind? And how do you know the other nazgul didn't do them?

So what if the Witch King broke a gate? Gandalf broke the Balrog's sword into a million pieces. No doubt this sword was blessed with many special spells too.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This thread was meant to be about the Balrog vs the Witch King. It seems to have drifted into a Gandalf the White vs the enhanced Witch King scenario. This is ok, as long as posters can relate their thoughts back to the Balrog.

That depends *entirely* on whether the Witch-king is confronting a winged or a wingless Balrog.

[Boromir88]

the attack of the nazgul with the morgul blade had more to do with Frodo striking at him and crying the name of Varda than with a supposed addendum to his mission.~Raynor

No, The Witch-King was already bearing down on him with the morgul blade, before Frodo made an attempt to strike:

In one hand he held a long sword, and in the other a knife; both the knife and the hand that held it glowed with a pale light. He sprang forward and bore down on Frodo.
At that moment Frodo threw himself forward on the ground, and he heard himself crying aloud: Oh Elbereth! Gilthoniel! At the same time he struck at the feet of his enemy. A shrill cry rang out in the night; and he felt a pain like a dart of poisoned ice pierce his left shoulder.~A Knife in the Dark

Gandalf's 'musings' about Sauron wanting Frodo for torment are actually correct. If the Witch-King's mission was to kill Frodo to get the Ring, why not use the sword he was wielding to just do the job? Instead he uses the Morgul knife and goes after Frodo (before Frodo makes his attempted 'strike')...Therefor were not Gandalf's words actually correct? That Sauron wanted the Ringbearer to be brought back to suffer and not be killed. I would call that a restriction placed on the Witch-King, similar to the restrictions placed upon Gandalf.

Thus, implying that the WK must have displayed such powers before because he was called a sorcerer is uncalled for.

Yet, as obloquy and I have both shown the Witch-King using magic long before Pelennor Fields. In his attack against Gandalf on Weathertop and the part that obloquy quotes. So, to say that assisting Grond in breaking down a gate shows the Witch-King has an added 'demonic force' is what I think is uncalled for.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I believe I have conveyed my point; I know of no minimum requirement of magic display in order to qualify as a sorcerer. Thus, implying that the WK must have displayed such powers before because he was called a sorcerer is uncalled for.

Well, he didn't get his rep as a sorcerer because of his skill in pulling rabbits out of his hat. Unless 'sorcerer' means someone who can do card tricks or escape from a straightjacket we must assume it stands for something significant, & as I stated breaking a gate with the aid of a battering ram is not actually all that significant. Sorry, but if breaking the gate in that way was only possible after being given 'added demonic force' then the WK must have been little better than a conjuror without it.