Split Personality?

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

It may be circular logic, but its perfectly logical - for a warrior to be considered the greatest he must perform some spectacular feat(s) of warrior stuff (I think that's the technical term, otherwise I'm sure Oblo will correct me...). Killing 70 trolls is more likely to be a simple fact, because, as I pointed out in my last post, its not the kind of thing you'd invent & expect people to believe. It must be true because, frankly, if it wasn't no-one (let alone a historical chronicler) would make it up. In fact, quite probably the chronicler himself felt it was a bit much (rather like claiming that Glorfindel actually killed the Balrog by hiding behind a rock & jumping out suddenly, shouting Boo! thereby causing it heart failure. Killing 70 trolls is so fantastic it must be true....

Your argument here is unconvincing. To say that because it is unbelievable and so over-the-top it must be true is ridiculous. We have many ancient texts that tell of all sorts of heroic and somewhat supernatural events, and I suspect that you don't believe a one of them, Hurin's stand being the exception.

Were the pyramids built by space aliens? Did Bigfoot vote in the last US of A Presidential election? Would intelligent beings travel light years in order to make designs in farmer's fields? What? Trans-galaxy travel and no Etch-a-Sketches?

Regarding texts of old heroes, what about all that was written about the life of J.C.? I've read a book about his life, and I'm suspicious about much that was attributed to him. Supposedly he came from a divine lineage, was known far and wide throughout the ancient Mediterranean region, has had a large impact on our lives even today down through the centuries (we see his mark on the calender at least one a year) and his death, having been betrayed by someone in his closest circle, is still remembered even today and purportedly was marked by signs and wonders.

Of course I'm talking about (Gaius) Julius Caesar.

Did he really kill an elephant? Did a lion whelp when he died? Did shooting stars also mark his death? Just what did he say when he crossed the Rubicon?

And I won't annoy our British cousins with tales about our father, General George "cherry tree chopping, never lying" Washington. Must be true, whatever was writ.

My questions regarding Hurin are thus:

• Who observed his deeds and how reliable is this observer? How reliable is the observation? Could seven become seventy due to a transcription error (if only that would happen with my paycheck)?

• Is there any independent corroboration of the facts? Did Melkor have a ledger that states that 70+ trolls lost capturing Hurin?

• How did each troll die? Did they die from Hurin's direct action, or is Hurin credited with the kill when others in his command actually help kill or actually killed the troll? Commanders are always given the credit, and when we're lucky, the blame when something happens under their command.

• What species of trolls were these? If they are like the ones encountered by Bilbo, then it's one level of heroism; if it's PJ's Battle trolls (and isn't PJ's the definitive word? ), then taking more than one down single-handedly is more than enough for one man to be the best? Seventy at that point might as well be a gagillion for the impact that more than two makes on my non-heroic brain (I killed seven flies once in one day, without an axe, but seeing Aragorn bested by one, I cannout fathom seven let alone seventy).

It's been said that 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.' In my head I've watched every painful swing of Hurin's, right down to his last when he is finally overwrought and overrun, and is dragged, struggling, to the Hells of Iron, but this won't convince anyone of anything, which I think is what we're trying to do here.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

Your argument here is unconvincing. To say that because it is unbelievable and so over-the-top it must be true is ridiculous. We have many ancient texts that tell of all sorts of heroic and somewhat supernatural events, and I suspect that you don't believe a one of them, Hurin's stand being the exception.

Were the pyramids built by space aliens? Did Bigfoot vote in the last US of A Presidential election? Would intelligent beings travel light years in order to make designs in farmer's fields? What? Trans-galaxy travel and no Etch-a-Sketches?.

Hurin killing 70 trolls seems at first sight 'fantastic' but it is not logically impossible, or, given his reputation, even 'possible but unlikely'. Is it more likely that a chronicler just made it up? It seems to me that if someone was just making up the number they would have gone for a smaller one (to make it more 'acceptable' why not 7?) or a much larger one (to emphasise Hurin's victory - why not 100?). The examples you cite are either logically impossible, or at the very least infinitely improbable.

So, again, Hurin could have killed 70 trolls. Any chronicler who simply wanted to have his account accepted without question would have said 7. One who wanted to present him as a superhero would have said 100, or 1000.

(Or, stepping outside the Legendarium, one could argue that Hurin killed 70 trolls because Tolkien said he did, & Tolkien is the only source we have, or can have. - which is equally 'circular logic'. Its a fact Hurin killed 70 trolls for the same reason that there are dragons in M-e is a fact - because Tolkien says so)

but this won't convince anyone of anything, which I think is what we're trying to do here.

I'm not. I just got caught up in this one. I can only think that anyone who doesn't, or can't, believe that Hurin killed 70 trolls is going to have a major problem with about 100% of the Legendarium. If you hold Hurin's killing of the Trolls may have been made up, or seriously exagerated, then you put the same question-mark over every single event in the stories - maybe Glorfindel didn't kill the Balrog on his own, maybe Turin didn't take down Glauring single-handedly.......

[alatar]

Originally Posted by davem

Hurin killing 70 trolls seems at first sight 'fantastic' but it is not logically impossible, or, given his reputation, even 'possible but unlikely'. Is it more likely that a chronicler just made it up?

Again, who recorded the event? If our answer is 'Tolkien,' I argue no further. But in the heat of battle things can become confused, and some men count each enemy head twice, or something.

It seems to me that if someone was just making up the number they would have gone for a smaller one (to make it more 'acceptable' why not 7?) or a much larger one (to emphasise Hurin's victory - why not 100?). The examples you cite are either logically impossible, or at the very least infinitely improbable.

That's not evidential. What you or I believe to be what people would or would not do would be great discussion (of course ), but add not one jot to the stack of evidence. Seventy to me sounds immediately suspicious as it's too 'round' of a number...not 68, 69 but 70? There's that magic number (at least in my culture) 7 again. Was 70 chosen to make some mythic point that escapes more causal readers like myself?

I'm not. I just got caught up in this one. I can only think that anyone who doesn't, or can't, believe that Hurin killed 70 trolls is going to have a major problem with about 100% of the Legendarium. If you hold Hurin's killing of the Trolls may have been made up, or seriously exagerated, then you put the same question-mark over every single event in the stories - maybe Glorfindel didn't kill the Balrog on his own, maybe Turin didn't take down Glauring single-handedly.......

Back to one of the origin points is that Tolkien's work rarely makes me think that Hurin could have done otherwise, and that's why it works. To me, what you state does happen, and I'm not using pretzel logic in that that maybe Hurin could have shone the last glint of sunlight off of his huge dwarven axe and turned the seventy to stone, and their heads fell off, and so technically he does behead them with an axe.

When in Arda, I'm a believer.

And just a thought: I find Legolas's count at Helm's Deep actually low.

[davem]

Originally Posted by alatar

. Seventy to me sounds immediately suspicious as it's too 'round' of a number...not 68, 69 but 70? There's that magic number (at least in my culture) 7 again. Was 70 chosen to make some mythic point that escapes more causal readers like myself?

I'd be more inclined to put the round number down to it being something like a 'Company' of Trolls sent out specifically to capture Hurin, rather than a bunch of Trolls who just got together & decided to take him on. It seems they were obeying specific orders - to capture him. Hence, one assumes that witnesses would only have to see a Company of Trolls assaulting Hurin to know that there were 70 of them. One would only then have to see them all piled up to know he had slain 70 of them. Anything else, it seems to me, calls the exact number into question, & it may well have been a tale that 'grew in the telling', & the reality that he actually killed 27 of them - or 7.

[Lalwendë]

Well, this thread having a pop culture bent, I have some pop culture evidence for some matters at hand.

1. According to American Pie 2, there is this rule that guys have where if anyone asks how many girls they have 'romanced', they must multiply the number by three. Thus if they have 'known' three girls then they must up the number to nine. In the case of Hurin he probably slaughtered approx 23 trolls but the rules state he must multiply this by three.

Incidentally the reverse rule is true for girls...

2. According to an experiment undertaken by one Johnny Knoxville, it is impossible to live once set on fire, beyond about eight seconds as you inhale the fumes and so...you die. I suspect that many people watching the films will also have seen Mr Knoxville's experiment and will have known just how wrong Denethor's run was, and this is probably why the cinema was rocking with laughter at that point.

I happen to think PJ threw that scene in as a reference to his old humorous gore fests. There are no lawnmowers in Middle-earth but a flaming Steward was just as funny.

3. Alan Moore was quite happy to sell film rights to his books and then having nothing more to do with them, until a lawsuit over The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Now he is not so carefree.

[Sauron the White]

from Lalwende

According to an experiment undertaken by one Johnny Knoxville, it is impossible to live once set on fire, beyond about eight seconds as you inhale the fumes and so...you die. I suspect that many people watching the films will also have seen Mr Knoxville's experiment and will have known just how wrong Denethor's run was, and this is probably why the cinema was rocking with laughter at that point.

You must hang out in very weird communities. I saw ROTK eleven times in the theaters and not once was the cinema rocking with laughter at that point. Not once. I only hope the Johnny whatever reference was in jest and not serious. To consider that third rate celebrity an authority on anything would be a real stretch.

from Bethberry

My willing suspension of sub-created belief while watching RotK in the cinema was continuously interrupted by five girls two rows down from me whose sole enjoyment was to experience the disruption of said belief and to laugh uproariously at the ridiculousness of it all.

I think those same five girls disrupt lots of movies that are not kissing the collective behinds of the high school set. I truly support the death penalty for people that do that in a theater. No trial. No jury. A sniper next to the upper area of the screen who drill them with a bullet. An usher then hangs a sign around the offending corpse "I TALKED". It would be a good thing.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

from Lalwende



You must hang out in very weird communities. I saw ROTK eleven times in the theaters and not once was the cinema rocking with laughter at that point. Not once. I only hope the Johnny whatever reference was in jest and not serious. To consider that third rate celebrity an authority on anything would be a real stretch.

I am of course pulling your chain

Not about the cinema laughing at Denethor though. Someone even yelled "Woo-hoo!" as he went over the edge.