The Truth of the Uruk-hai

[Galin]

You are free to hold that interpretation of course (and I'll bet you're not alone), but what Treebeard might see and what he knows are yet two different things.

'Treebeard is a character in my story, not me; and though he has a great memory and some earthy wisdom, he is not one of the Wise, and there is quite a lot he does not know or understand.' JRRT, Letters

Now that doesn't mean I toss aside everything Treebeard says. Indeed not! But the quote you are raising has the character himself essentially admitting that he does not know what Saruman has done. Saruman has been doing something, but what? 'I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?'

Good questions, but questions nonetheless. Have 'half-orcs' been seen? If so the beings under question are maybe something like what Merry describes: 'horrible: man-high but with goblin-faces, sallow, leering, squint-eyed' -- indeed the half-orcs as Aragorn calls them.

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

You are free to hold that interpretation of course

Well, I'm not here to hold an interpretation, I am here to learn something or to try to help uncover something. Exploring possibilities, exposing flaws in theories and trying to come to a conclusion is what I want to do

Originally Posted by Galin

And if it was the Uruk-hai that were noted, again, how would Treebeard know (not that he would claim to know), why it was they didn't seem to mind the Sun? Big Orcs who don't appear to mind the Sun or man-high Orc-faced beings doing damage to the forest could easily be 'all the same' to an Ent... close enough in any case, with respect to Entish concerns, though it probably would make one wonder what Saruman has done.

I am not exactly sure if I understand the first sentence. If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them. And that's what I said I thought about the Uruk-hai of Saruman: that they, in contrary to the Uruks of Mordor, had something "mannish" in them, even though they were Orcs. And if Treebeard judged them like that, it surely was not just because of the gear they carried.

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

However logical and I must say interesting your theory is, this thing makes me doubt it. It would be much more interesting to let us have Uruks of Mordor and Uruks of Isengard the same, but also the "we are something special" lines the Uruk-hai make all the time make it sound like they are indeed something different, something "more" than even the Mordor Uruks.

[Galin]

Legate of Amon Lanc wrote: ... If I understood it correctly, you (maybe just rhetorically) ask how would Treebeard know the reason why the Uruk-hai (like Uglúk) do not fear the light. But he says it. If we presume it was the Uruk-hai whom Treebeard saw, he saw them roaming the forest at day, which of course seemed strange to him. But as he says, "these Isengarders are more like wicked Men". This means that he had to notice something "mannish" on them.

Not necessarily something beyond 'sun tolerance' though. In other words, even if the Uruk-hai are the beings in question, they are like Men in that they do not mind the Sun, yes, but why don't they mind it, specifically? Treebeard doesn't know, he doesn't have certain knowledge. Are they ruined Men? half-breeds? some other reason maybe? some 'spell' perhaps? would even a half-breed automatically not mind the Sun? He doesn't ask all these questions, but he is questioning.

Treebeard's reason to suspect something about the Isengarders appears to concern the Sun, which, as far as he knows, is unusual for Orcs. Call it interpretation A.

If I understand your post correctly (and maybe I don't), you seem to be suggesting something like: Treebeard says they are more like wicked men because there is something 'mannish' about them and he saw them in the day and this also seemed strange to him (adding to his reasons to say they are like wicked men).

Maybe

The ultimate question, however, leads again to what exactly he saw. But the point is, that all these goblin-faced Men made the impression that they are Men. Even Merry, though he said they were unbelievably Orcish, classified them as Men. To make the judgement he did, Treebeard must have thought to himself: "Ha, here are some Orcs!" and only on the second sight "But hey, there is something strange on them, which is not quite Orcish."

Coupled with (from an earlier post, see above)...

'... but I'd presume that for someone like Treebeard with his long lists and ages of knowledge, he'd speak more clearly of "wicked Men" and not "man-like Orcs", had he seen these "goblin-faces".

In other words (if I read this right) you're suggesting that Treebeard can't have seen half-orcs because they give the general impression of Men and he would have spoken more clearly in your opinion. So you conclude he saw the Uruk-hai and etc.

Again maybe, but not clearly so in my opinion.

'if I had seen you before I heard you, I should have just trodden on you, taking you for little Orcs, and found out my mistake afterwards' Treebeard to the Hobbits

I rather think it quite likely that if Treebeard saw orkish beings, due to what he thinks about Orks and darkness he then wonders about 'ruined Men' or some result of interbreeding. Also I think one can press this point about classification too much. If indeed Treebeard saw beings who were (to use your words) 'unbelievably Orkish' we can't certainly know he wouldn't generally think them orkish enough to be termed 'Orcs' (when speaking to the Hobbits).

Treebeard's commentary here might suggest to some that the Uruk-hai are more than 'Orc-folk' with respect to blood, but as I say that is one interpretation, and but part of the evidence.

In any case The Ent might be surprised to know that the Uruk-hai (boast as they like) are not the only Orcs who can run 'well enough' under the Sun.

[littlemanpoet]

What about the chapters involving Merry and Pippin's captivity and travel across Rohan? In these Tolkien describes individual orcs and groups of orcs at length. I haven't had a chnace myself, but don't these passages reveal anything useful about the varieties of orcs?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

A lot of talking at cross-purposes, due to confusion of terms, which are not synonymous, but which do overlap considerably.

1) Uruk, group-plural Uruk-hai (Sindarin Orchoth).* This term applies to all great soldier-Orcs, as opposed to lesser 'snagas.'** Uruk-hai does not denote, specifically, Saruman's hybrids, but does include a great number or even the majority of them (see 2a below); it applies with equal force to Grishnakh's group, Shagrat, Gorbag, and the Mordor-detachment in Moria. Their history goes back centuries before the War of the Ring.
It would be wholly typical of Orkish behavior if most groups considered themselves Uruk-hai, and all smaller Orcs as snagas or maggots- just as even bigger Orcs in turn classed them as apes or snagas or maggots.

2) Half-orcs, Orc-men, Man-orcs, crossbreeds, etc. These are the Orc-Man hybrids bred at Isengard at the end of the Third Age. There was (unsurprisingly) a great deal of genetic variation among this group: "producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile."

2a) Those in whom Orkish characteristics predominated appeared to be, and plainly considered themselves, Uruks, if of an especially powerful type ("We are the fighting Uruk-hai!");

2b) Those in whom the Mannish character was more pronounced ("Orc-faces") were useful to mingle with men, as the "squint-eyed Southerner" at Bree and at least some of Sharkey's Ruffians, and (I suspect) used to stir up the Dunlendings.


*Lit. "Orc-folk, the host of the Orcs," but (in BS and Orkish jargon, not Sind.) modified in practice (see note 2)

**Originally meant all Orcs, but in their own usage became restricted to the heavy soldiery.

[Galin]

I agree that Uruk-hai 'Orc-folk' does not denote 'hybrids' of course, and certainly Saruman's Uruk-hai are also Uruks (which is an anglicized plural)... but I do not think Uruks are necessarily hybrids however.

I find no certain evidence to date (many theories yes) that an Uruk is more (with respect to blood) than a 'great soldier orc', better trained and generally larger than other types.

The Uruk-hai are directly referred to as Orcs (or translation 'goblins'), but not directly (to my knowledge) referred to as 'half-orcs, man-orcs, orc-men' (though some think they are, by way of interpretation).

Incidentally, some argue that all Uruk-hai can be called Uruks but not all Uruks are properly called 'Uruk-hai'. Not that I necessarily agree with that, but the new information of 'Orc-folk' has not changed this argument it seems, as the claim is that Uruk-hai had (for whatever reason) properly become a 'tribal-name' of the Isengarders.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Good. Really nice input now from everyone. To avoid confusion, I'll just put in three of my main questions now (you may try to put an answer to them, or just leave them be and go on in the discussion. I also hope my usage of the terms "Uruk" and "Uruk-hai" have not created misunderstanding, I divided them just for technical purposes of being clear). The questions are connected together, answer to one means answer to the others, but they are supposed to bring together the answerer to noticing all facts.

1. Were the Uruk-hai like Uglúk (not the "half-orcs" - for avoiding confusion, imagine Uglúk as a specific example of the race) somehow crossed with Men or not?

2. Were the Uruk-hai of Isengard the same as the Uruk-hai of Mordor?

3. Could all the "big Orcs" go well with the light?

My own answers - waiting for someone else's agreeing or disagreeing:

1. Nothing specifically says they were. They were almost man-high and went all right in the light. But the Uruk-hai of Mordor were also almost man-high. The question remains about the light.

2. See above and see below; but for starters, let's say this: if they were to differ in anything, it would have to be the origin of Isengarders, if they are indeed crossed with Men. If they are not, both the races are probably the same.

3. Now that's just it. There is that statement of Treebeard, and I think we can agree with his wisdom collected through the ages, at least in this case surely.

Originally Posted by Treebeard

It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it.

This, for me, is a signal that the Orcs of Saruman are the only ones who can go quite well with the Sun. The lesser goblins are afraid and exhausted, the greater goblins are exhausted a little bit more, but the Uruk-hai of Isengard have no problem and they are the only ones. If this is true, then this would be a symptome of different origin. The Orcs of Sauron are just Orcs of Morgoth, ultimately, from the same origin. Morgoth was Sauron's master, all that comes from Sauron is just another use of the original things of Morgoth. Sauron's Uruks are upgraded Morgoth's Orcs. Saruman's Orcs are a new race: created by Saruman alone. (Technically speaking. Of course, if Saruman indeed crossed Orcs with Men, he still had Morgoth's Orcs to begin with - ultimately, all evil streams from Morgoth. But Saruman has his own input in the work, where Sauron had none or very little. Sauron uses Morgoth's ways* to enhance Morgoth's creatures, Saruman uses Saruman's ways to enhance Morgoth's creatures.)

If Treebeard is right, then Sauron's Uruk-hai are not of the kind to stroll whistling under the Sun. With that, #3 is answered: no. If that's right, then there is something different in the Isengarders. With that, #2 is answered: no. If that's right, the only logical conclusion of the problem is the one to which Treebeard comes when he continues his formerly quoted speech:

Originally Posted by Treebeard

I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men?

Either of these would be answer to #1. And that's, technically, why I think the Uruk-hai of Mordor are indeed in the position to say "we are something more" - they are right (whether it's good or bad, even from the view of Orcs, is another matter).

So that's about it.

*i.e. the ways Morgoth taught him

[Rumil]

Hi all,

interesting discussion here, but on this issue I think I side with Galin.

In my view orcs etc can be organised like this-

1- Orcs

1a- snagas, mountain maggots, 'The Hobbit' goblins -small orcs
1b- everyday orcs, Grishnakh's company, majority of Mordor orcs - medium orcs
1c- Uruks and Uruk-Hai of Mordor and Isengard - big orcs

2- Halforcs ie man-orcs, orc-men, goblin-men - Saruman's speciality
2a- Halforcs that are obviously orcish
2b- Halforcs that could be mistaken for men

Are there Uruk-hai in Mordor? Yes indeed- according to the tracker in Mordor

then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or maybe it's the whole lot together

Are halforcs and Saruman's Uruks different? I think UT implies this at the Battles of the fords of the Isen with

the sudden assault of the massed Uruks

followed a few lines later by

there appeared a company of men or orc-men

and

Theodred fell, hewn down by a great orc-man

where its clear that the elite company of orc-men is different from the heavily armed Uruks.

To say nothing of Aragorn's comments