Good and evil

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I'd agree with davem. I think the formulation that the usurpation of power is pretty correct. But, however true you are, davem, I think what you speak of would be just the "normal" corruption by power. That's what the people who made (or considered, cf. below) themselves the ultimate rulers would do, everyone putting the Middle-Earth into the shape of their own imagination, but that won't accord with Eru's plan and thus, be "evil". The Ring, I would presume, would break the last barriers of their conscience and so, even for people like Sam or Galadriel or Faramir or Gandalf, they will cease to care of the others and go after their own goals (even if the goals were to be seen as "good" by them). The moment of taking the Ring for your own is when it happens - that's why there's so much emphasise putting on it, that's why it's so important that Bilbo, Frodo, Sam... received (or came to, but "received", I think, is appropriate word here) it (and not took it by force), though later the former two declared the Ring as "their own and no one's". By taking the Ring for your own, you say "I have the RIGHT to have it and it is only mine, no one else has the right to relativise this" (the words "mine and no one else's" define it pretty well, but I want to make clear what I speak of). Simply said, Bilbo, you don't have the right on claiming the Ring, it's not yours. You cannot say "the Ring should do this and this and never anything else" - at any time, the Ring may pass to anyone else (like Frodo) and you cannot object it. That's the thing Melkor said about Arda:

Originally Posted by Ainulindalë

When therefore Earth was yet young and full of flame Melkor coveted it, and he said to the other Valar: "This shall be my own kingdom; and I name it unto myself!"

The point is that no one can ultimately say this about anything. Even Aragorn, let's say, does not have any right to say that he is the King and it can be never changed. Like Treebeard said, "'never' is too long even for me." Remember that first, Melkor did not want everything to become Darkness: he wanted to claim the Light and to make everything his own. He turned to that "nihilism" when he realized that he cannot have everything ("mine - or no one's!"), that there is still the will of Eru above him, whatever he would do.

In connection with this, maybe there's just only one thing I'd think about, and that's that from what we know, I think there are hints that ultimately the Ring (because it has part of Sauron's power in it) could lead even Galadriel (or these folks we speak of) into doing things that would remind us of Mordor, meaning now the real, "physical" Mordor - destruction and darkness. I think if she retained her status for some time, she'd ultimately start to fade into these "evil" things we know. First, as I said above, she could realize that even as the ultimate ruler there is the will of Eru above her, and she could decide then between just two things: to bow down and obey (diminish, go into the West, remain Galadriel - and leave her Mega-Lórien behind), or to oppose even Eru - and if she went into the extreme as Morgoth did, she would come to the state that the only thing she could do will be destroying everything. "Okay, Eru, I see I cannot control some things against your will, so I will at least destroy them". And here we go. The same path.

Or second, thinking in less extreme ways, maybe something else could happen, because the Ring could come to work here. That's something Raynor mentioned about the "higher evil forces that are uncontrollable"; when Galadriel would have reached the ultimate power in Middle-Earth, there will also be nothing else for her that she would consider "higher" than herself (at least to the point I mentioned above, when she would start to struggle against that what would oppose her), which means, she is the ultimate and despotic ruler, just as Melkor and Sauron at certain point of time thought they were. In this moment, in our Galadriel case, the Ring would come to work, because the person won't have any other things to hold to, and the Ring would probably convince her to "build Dark Towers and create Ringwraith". Why do I think so: Because there is a part of Sauron's personality in the Ring. It does not have anything to do with Galadriel's dreams or goals. But I think the personality of Sauron in the Ring would make her do things even she wouldn't like to do, and she would do them. Strange? I think not - just imagine it. "Hey, why could you not make a Nazgul from Elrond? You ask why would you do that? Well, why not? You are the ruler - you can do everything you want. No one can ban you from turning Elrond into a Nazgul. So prove it." It would take long, perhaps millenia, but I think even Galadriel could start to do things that would make her somewhat like the real Sauron, if she possessed the Ring - and ultimately, the Ring will possess her.

[davem]

I can't ever imagine Galadriel living in a Dark Tower, surrounded by Black Riders & Orcs. I can imagine her living in a Mallorn the size of Barad Dur, surrounded by Elves as enslaved as Ringwraiths & Orcs. And that's the point - for all Tolkien may have made reference to evil having a beautiful form we see very little of that in M-e. Evil is almost uniformly dark & ugly - stereotypical bad guys in the main. This leads many readers to associate beauty with goodness & ugliness with evil.

But take Lewis & Narnia. Narnia under Jadis is beautiful. Snowy landscapes, an Ice Palace, & all ruled over by a beautiful White Queen. Far more seductive than a Mordor ruled by Sauron & peopled by Orcs.

The point about Narnia when we first encounter it is that's its a realm ruled over by evil, but we don't realise that. Its not simply that there its 'always winter but never Christmas. Its that its always winter & never anything else. Jadis has absolute control over the land & has reshaped it in her own image.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think it's clear what you mean, and as I said I agree with it. However, I am now speaking only of the thing that probably the Ring will ultimately make Galadriel, let's say, build the Dark Tower. Of course she (herself), even corrupted with power (and the more) would prefer a titanic Mallorn tree. But I think that someday the Dark Tower will come - it seems strange and as I said, it would have to take millenia. But it is the Sauron's will in the Ring, thus HIS image of the world, that will leak through. I am not saying Galadriel's mega-Lórien won't be evil, but I am only pointing out one aspect of the Ring that we know about. This is not about power any longer, it is about Sauron's will leaking through. Galadriel will create the Megalórien, a tyranny of itself, different from the stereotypical tyranny of Sauron, but then, I think Sauron's personality stored in the Ring will gnaw its way through and could lead Galadriel to do some of these stereotypical evil things. Against her own, albeit tyrannic wishes, to be absolutely clear.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

I think Sauron's personality stored in the Ring will gnaw its way through and could lead Galadriel to do some of these stereotypical evil things. Against her own, albeit tyrannic wishes, to be absolutely clear.

My feeling is that while the Ring may contain some of Sauron's Will, it doesn't contain so much of his 'taste' that it will make a possessor of it ever want to live in a big tower in a blasted landscape - unless that desire was there in the first place. I think a 'megaLorien' is at the same 'extreme' of evil as Mordor - both are 'effects' of the utilisation of absolute power.

In short, while the Mordorisation of M-e is uglier than the Lorienisation of M-e, it isn't more 'evil' (unless judged purely aesthetically). Or in other words, Mordorisation is not the 'final step' beyond Lorienisation - the latter is equally an 'ultimate' manifestation of evil, & would equally demonstrate the absolute victory of the Ring.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

I'm not sure what I think. Galadriel sees herself as 'beautiful and terrible.' Sam imagines a garden swollen to a realm. But is this accurate, or the Ring's deceit? Sauron could once appear beautiful.

I suspect that for Tolkien Beauty was in large part dependent on natural harmony (and allowing the Music to take its course). The exercise of forceful interference introduces disharmony- the discord of Melkor, if you like. Sauron's inability after the Fall of Numenor to take on a fair form indicates that with the diminishment of his power he was unable to maintain a *disguise*- that his outward form reflected his true nature. Note also Saruman in death- rags of flesh over a hideous skull. There is something about the Will to Power which brings inherent ugliness along with it. Since temporal power of the sort the Ring promises involves coercion and enslavement, the process almost ineveitably involves the evocation of Fear- and terror involves using the ugly and the hideous. I believe Galadriel+ Ring would ultimately, like Saruman, have recruited Orcs.

For an Augustinian Catholic beauty on Earth is a distant echo of Divine perfection, and so I think for Tolkien the rejection of Eru's purpose (embodied in the moral law) means abandoning that echo- this can be seen even in the case of Aule and the Dwarves, who are not evil, but are indeed unlovely.

[davem]

It is part of the essential malady of such days— producing the desire to escape, not indeed from life, but from our present time and self-made misery— that we are acutely conscious both of the ugliness of our works, and of their evil. So that to us evil and ugliness seem indissolubly allied. We find it difficult to conceive of evil and beauty together. The fear of the beautiful fay that ran through the elder ages almost eludes our grasp. Even more alarming: goodness is itself bereft of its proper beauty. In Faerie one can indeed conceive of an ogre who possesses a castle hideous as a nightmare (for the evil of the ogre wills it so), but one cannot conceive of a house built with a good purpose—an inn, a hostel for travellers, the hall of a virtuous and noble king—that is yet sickeningly ugly. At the present day it would be rash to hope to see one that was not—unless it was built before our time. On Fairy Stories

So Tolkien lectures us. And yet, doesn't he fall into the same trap himself - allying ugliness almost solely with evil & beauty with goodness. Yes, there are examples of evil having a beautiful face (Annatar), & good having an ugly one (the Woses), yet in reality these are exceptions that prove the rule. In M-e not only do "evil and ugliness seem indissolubly allied" they are so. If we do find it "difficult to conceive of evil and beauty together" Tolkien himself could be said to have exacerbated that problem.

Or perhaps its simply because LotR, indeed the Legendarium as a whoie, is not actually a 'Fairy Story' at all?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

My feeling is that while the Ring may contain some of Sauron's Will, it doesn't contain so much of his 'taste' that it will make a possessor of it ever want to live in a big tower in a blasted landscape - unless that desire was there in the first place. I think a 'megaLorien' is at the same 'extreme' of evil as Mordor - both are 'effects' of the utilisation of absolute power.

Surely. But what I want to say is that when we speak especially of the Ring in particular, and not any other form of corruption by power, the Ring's effects are two: first, boosting the original lust for power, second, leaking Sauron's thoughts through. As I said, it would have to take millenia for Galadriel to start breeding Orcs, but ultimately, I believe it would come. That would happen at the moment, when the Ring would have destroyed the wielder's prior identity. Technically, the person would become a Nazgul himself.
(Please note - and I hope it was clear even from what I posted earlier, just want to make it sure - that I do not speak of profiling the evil in general, I speak only of the one particular case of the Ring, which had a little bit of Sauron's personality in it.)

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

For an Augustinian Catholic beauty on Earth is a distant echo of Divine perfection, and so I think for Tolkien the rejection of Eru's purpose (embodied in the moral law) means abandoning that echo- this can be seen even in the case of Aule and the Dwarves, who are not evil, but are indeed unlovely.

Originally Posted by davem

So Tolkien lectures us. And yet, doesn't he fall into the same trap himself - allying ugliness almost solely with evil & beauty with goodness. Yes, there are examples of evil having a beautiful face (Annatar), & good having an ugly one (the Woses), yet in reality these are exceptions that prove the rule. In M-e not only do "evil and ugliness seem indissolubly allied" they are so. If we do find it "difficult to conceive of evil and beauty together" Tolkien himself could be said to have exacerbated that problem.

Or perhaps its simply because LotR, indeed the Legendarium as a whoie, is not actually a 'Fairy Story' at all?

The question is, what did Tolkien himself think - what did leak into his image of Middle-Earth, was it more like, as William said, the Augustinian Catholic point of view, or did he see it as a "Fairy story"? I believe he was not himself sure at certain points, or subconsciously, some things just pushed him to portray the evil as ugly (exactly as in the quote davem provided - a brilliant example!). Yet, I think at certain moments, like that in the "Mirror of Galadriel", he managed to get past this and show that even beautiful can be "evil".