Silmarillion - Chapter 16 - Of Maeglin

[Aiwendil]

Please don't apologize for double-posting - it's good to see interest in these discussions!

But one question I was pondering - did Tolkien originally intend Eol to be of the Moriquendi, rather than of the "high kin of the Teleri"? And if so, would that have worked better?

That's an interesting issue, actually - if I recall correctly, most accounts make him one of the Sindar and a kinsman of Thingol. In "Quendi and Eldar", however, it is said that Eol was one of the Avari - specifically, the "Tatyarin Avari", the kinsfolk of the Noldor who chose to remain in Middle-earth. But in the late work on "Of Maeglin" there is an apparent reversion to the earlier story. Of course, it's hard to judge what Tolkien's original intention was, since the story is only mentioned and not told in the Lost Tales.

And I don't much like the sound of "wholly unwilling" and "nor...that her life was hateful..." damning with faint praise, really

I agree. Certainly, Aredhel seems to be a prisoner; but there is a hint of something stranger than mere captivity. Perhaps something like "Stockholm syndrome" was at work. It's too bad Tolkien never elaborated. On the other hand, the ambiguity does leave a wide scope for the reader's imagination.

So what did daddy call him before that? Did he talk to him at all? That's a cheery household for a little elf-boy to grow up in, to be sure...and then to see his father kill his mother before his eyes, albeit inadvertently. Or perhaps not so inadvertent really...after all, he kept quiet about the dart being poisoned, until it was too late...

Indeed - and one wonders what may have been in Maeglin's thoughts as he watched his father cast over the Caragdur and ignored his plea to intercede on his behalf.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Tolkien went back and forth as to whether there were any Avari in Beleriand (btw, 'Moriquendi' refers to *all* Elves who never crossed the Sea, so it applies to Sindar and Nandor as well. Tolkien later conceded that the Noldor didn't use the term in polite conversation).

In the Lost Tales notebook Eol is "of the Mole-kin of the Gnomes [Noldoli, Noldor]," and in the Fall of Gondolin Meglin is described similarly.

Isfin [Aredhel] and her kidnapping/marriage first entered in the fragmentary Lay of Gondolin (ca. 1921), where it is said of Eol "the Dark Elves were his kindred who wander without home." However, the distinction between what would later be Avari and Sindar was very fuzzy at this stage: in the Tale of Tinuviel, written not long before, "many a wild and woodland clan rallied beneath King Tinwelint [Thingol]. Of these the most were Ilkorindi - which is to say Eldar that had never beheld Valinor or the Two Trees or dwelt in Kor [Tirion] - and eerie they were and strange beings, knowing little of light or loveliness or of musics....." In the Tale of The Coming of the Elves, written after Tinuviel, Tinwe Linto, beguiled by "the fay Wendelin," alone remains behind while all of the Solosimpi [Teleri] embark on the island, and the implication is that his people are the many Elves who were lost in "those old forests" of "Hisilome the land of shade:" and "the Lost Elves did [Men] name the Shadow Folk and feared them" (in this version there are no Elves who refuse to embark on the Great Journey, the later definition of Avari). The confusion isn't helped by the fact that in the Lay of Gondolin Isfin's capture occurs in "Doriath"- but it's unclear whether that name applied at the time to Tinwelint/Thingol's realm, in the Lost Tales called "Artanor."

In the Later Annals of Beleriand (mid-30's), Eol is simply called "Dark-elf," which doesn't clarify matters. And in the original Quenta Silmarillion (1937), he's oddly not mentioned at all! (Tolkien never reached the Fall of Gondolin in that work).

[Aiwendil]

In the Lost Tales notebook Eol is "of the Mole-kin of the Gnomes [Noldoli, Noldor]," and in the Fall of Gondolin Meglin is described similarly.

Ah, thank you. I had quite forgotten that Eol's origin was mentioned at all in the Lost Tales material.

[Galadriel55]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Certainly, Aredhel seems to be a prisoner; but there is a hint of something stranger than mere captivity. Perhaps something like "Stockholm syndrome" was at work.

Reminds me more of this thing about marriage and love mentioned in a number of novels: "Marry him now, and in time, you'll get used to him and come to love him...eventually". I doubt that Aredhel appreciated that Eol didn't make it worse for her; she probably got too used to hi being around to hate him. She still disliked him, but not enough to suppress soe affection for his presence.

Strange thing that Aredhel "accepted" Eol at all, considering her pride and stubbornness.

The weird thing is that sometimes you wish that another person would be gone forever, but when he leaves, it doesn't feel right. The same thing happens vice versa. I wouldn't go as far as saying that Aredhel actually missed Eol when he went on his journeys (she was probably relieved to see him go), but she didn't mind his presence that much anymore. She asked Turgon to spare his life, when she had the chance to be rid of him once and for all without any work on her own account. However, that could just be an act of pity to someone who is on a lower level, or in a bad situation, or simply someone pathetic - and not affection or feeling of duty to her husband.

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Indeed - and one wonders what may have been in Maeglin's thoughts as he watched his father cast over the Caragdur and ignored his plea to intercede on his behalf.

Whatever he thought, it was the first "fruit" of the "dark seed of evil". I understand that Maeglin didn't think much of his father, but he must have had some respect for Eol. And even if all respect was gone, there's still duty: if not duty to a parent, then at least to a teacher. Gondolin didn't fall because of Maeglin's treachery, but because of his desire for evil - or undesire for resisting evil.

Interesting how Maeglin seems to inherit the worst qualities from his parents. He got Aredhel's willfulness, rashfulness, and stubborness, but not her tiny drop of pity and tolerance. She also knew something about the concept of honour - which Maeglin didn't really percieve.

[Evisse the Blue]

Think how many troubles and woes could have been averted if Thingol would just unclench from time to time. Like for instance, if he would've allowed Aredhel to pass through his realm. This is one time when he could've made an exception from the law he himself set and allowed her to pass, escorted. I don't suppose he feared her as such, did he? And she *was Fingon's sister. The character of Thingol does bug me, on the whole. I know he's supposed to be a good guy but there's just so much of him that I dislike.

Well, I guess he had it coming in the end, though. As Gildor says to Frodo some ages later: 'The wide world is all about you. You can fence yourself in but you cannot forever fence it out.'

I have a mind to say more on this matter but I'd stray from the topic of discussing this chapter. Maybe I'll make a thread of this, after I put my thoughts more or less in order.

[Galadriel55]

Aredhel must have really had some feelings for Eol. When he said not do look at light, or to stay at home, she listened, when she didn't even listen to her brother! I think it's wrong to say that Eol had influence over her; rather, she allowed him to have that influence. Considering how willful and determined Aredhel is, if she really wanted, she could have gotten her way with Eol.

Just about everyone "I" talk with seems to ridicule and loathe the name "Eol". Putting aside the fact that his son pretty much brought about the fall of Gondolin, I personally find Eol to be a vigorous and sublime character. Sure he was a bit introverted and haughty, but who doesn't have there flaws? This is a kinsman of Thingol. Has a falling out with Thingol, doesn't really like the structured enviornment, moves to Nan-Elmoth. Ooh, he's so "evil". At least he doesn't hide behind his wife's magic girdle all day.

[Pitchwife]

Hi brad, just seeing the screen name you've chosen I was sure for a moment you had to be another spambot (for your information, the last one to plague these Downs just a few hours ago called itself 'angelajolie', so it would have been a hilarious coincidence).

Glad to see you're real, and your post certainly has a point; I tend to find the more ambiguous characters in the Silmarillion, like Eöl or Mîm, the most interesting ones myself (and nice jibe against Thingol by the way!).

Welcome to the Downs, and enjoy being dead!