The Council of Elrond

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Much of the news that was imparted in the book version was imparted in other places such as the prologue of the Last Alliance. There is no way that any filmmaker could have sustained audience interest for the length of time it would have taken for all the various talking heads to tell their story and their contributions to the history of the ring had the book been "faithfully" translated to the screen. 25 minutes or more of narrative exposition woud have killed the film dead in its tracks.

Yes, yes. But don't you think that they could have had less arguement and more debate?

As I said, I don't think that they should have had everything in there. As a reader it is hard to get through it(or was a few years ago) and in a movie it would be... I guess it depends on how they did it. I don't blame them a bit for shortening it, but I don't like how they shortened it.

Also, does anyone have an explaination for how in middle earth did Boromir know that Aragorn son of Arathorn was the heir of Isildur?

Unless you can find the other people in the credits, I have no clue who they are.
In the books it says...

Elrond was there, and severel others were seated in silence about him. Frodo saw Glorfindel and Gloin; and in a corner alone Strider was sitting... Elrond drew Frodo to a seat by his side, and presented him to the company...

So not many names are meantioned.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's quite true that there's nothing more deadly for a film than to shoot a bunch of people sitting around talking for anything more than a very brief time. Neither PJ nor a qualified director could have shot JRRT's chapter as written- indeed, Tolkien barely pulled it off in prose.

Still, that's no excuse for having the Council devolve into a childish shouting match (nor for having Boromir recognize the name 'Aragorn').

[Knight of Gondor]

Many of the names are matched with faces on the Quintessential Website for Lord of the Rings images.

Another key change was that Elrond said everyone had been summoned. (Denethor confirmed this in TTT:EE by saying Elrond was calling a council.) Yet in FotR (book), Elrond stated that they were not summoned by any Elf, but rather came together by fate/destiny/providence.

I agree with Finduilas, I don't like how they shortened it, though I expected them to shorten it. When I first started the books, that chapter bogged me down for a while. Now, it's one of my favorites because it takes all of the history of the Ring and binds it together, and contains so much of the other mythology and lore of Middle-Earth in it.

I too agree that it was kind of silly to erupt in a big fight like they did.

[Sauron the White]

Part of making a serious film is to create moments of drama. Perhaps Jackson felt that the eventual declaration by Frodo to take the Ring was more dramatic if preceded by a moment of vigorous debate which degenerated into arguing. Frodo saying he will take the ring and reaction of Gandalf to those words puts an end to the loud bickering and puts a more dramatic feel of peace to the events.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Part of making a serious film is to create moments of drama. Perhaps Jackson felt that the eventual declaration by Frodo to take the Ring was more dramatic if preceded by a moment of vigorous debate which degenerated into arguing. Frodo saying he will take the ring and reaction of Gandalf to those words puts an end to the loud bickering and puts a more dramatic feel of peace to the events.

Although I would have loved to see more included in The Council, I agree here. There is no denying that it is very dramatic when you hear Frodo yell "I will take it!" and you see Gandalf's face turn from anger to compassion.

[Finduilas]

Originally Posted by MatthewM

Although I would have loved to see more included in The Council, I agree here. There is no denying that it is very dramatic when you hear Frodo yell "I will take it!" and you see Gandalf's face turn from anger to compassion.

Dramatic, yes. Killing the Fellowship at the end would have been even more dramatic. It turns Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, and even Gandalf(and all those other people) into children who can't talk below a shout, and can't have a quiet debate! It was almost one of those "It's mine," "no, it's mine," arguements that I have had, and I am sure that I'm not the only Downer still able to remember the wonderful days of childhood, where logic isn't appreciated. Now I know it isn't nearly that bad, but it was childish, and I am glad that Aragorn and Elrond stayed seated and didn't join. It doesn't speak well for the order of the West.

*sigh* The things that movie makers do, and people justify it for the sake of "dramatics"! The whole Aragorn-Arwen thing is alot the same. All the falling off cliffs were for the same thing.

[Folwren]

Seems like they already had a dramatic setting for much the same thing - when Frodo was trying to give the ring to Gandalf in the beginning of the movie when he and Gandalf were rather loud just before his - "What must I do" line.

As for being dramatic in the Council...well, there is more than one way to make something dramatic. Tolkien's way of doing it was dramatic in almost the opposite way. Things were utterly quiet for some little while before Frodo spoke up in the book. I think they could have done it.

Having the council blow up into a shouting match between the elves and the dwarves and Gandalf and Boromir wasn't good.

I had no problem with the people being summoned, though. That was fairly reasonable. However, I wish they had shown people coming up with different options - like throwing it into the sea, or taking it across the Water, etc. *shrugs* I don't know, I think it's better than saying, "This thing is utterly evil, we have to walk into the middle of Mordor to destroy it and I invited you here so that I could shovel this duty on you, for one of you must do this."

Eh well. That's my opinion.

And, oh! Golly! Another insanely illogical and dumb thing that they did was put the Ring out in the middle of the whole circle! In the book Frodo was loath to show it, even for a moment. Would he have set it in the middle of so many strangers? I somehow think not. It was too easily set away from him.

-- Folwren

[Sauron the White]

Have you ever noticed how in actual real life things often regress pretty rapidly when you have opposing sides taking strong positions against each other? Notice how two smart people can be quickly overcome by road rage in a matter of seconds. There certainly was rational discussion in the Council of Elrond film sequence, but it regressed to what we saw. Again, I think it only served to underline the poignancy of Frodo's acceptance of the Ring.

In the end, only one thing matters when you are discussing a film. DID IT WORK?
And for me - and I would imagine millions of others who came back again and again - it did work. Mission accomplished.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

*sigh* The things that movie makers do, and people justify it for the sake of "dramatics"!

I am not justifying it, I don't think that anything PJ did opposite to the books is "justified". I'm just saying that I liked Wood's delivering of "I will take it!" and the look of Gandalf afterwards. That's all.

Originally Posted by Finduilas

The whole Aragorn-Arwen thing is alot the same. All the falling off cliffs were for the same thing.

Although there are constant complaints about the Aragorn and Arwen plot change, I do not mind it much. The falling off the cliff is another story.

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

It turns Boromir, Gimli, Legolas, and even Gandalf(and all those other people) into children who can't talk below a shout, and can't have a quiet debate!

And you're right (I've made my stance clear on the "childish" qualities PJ's Boromir holds, as you know)- but this thread isn't about character portrayal - it's about The Council scene itself, correct?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Well the characters have a lot to do with the council scene, since they are kinda the thing that keeps it going... are they not? And yes Boromir was quite childish, not just in the council scene but also when he picks up the hilt of Narsil and then drops it, and in other parts of the films as well, and i was also Boromir who started the fight. Was it not?