Lord of Gravity

[Bêthberry]

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

"Offspring of indeterminate gender..."

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

Vanity, thy name is Narcissus, speaking of my boy...

Your answer seems to be the 'serenity' prayer. My point, besides never accepting things as they are, is that in Arda the Valar either cannot, will not or do not intervene, or if they do we can not discern their handiwork from the background; therefore the Valar are irrelevant save the bedtime story with occasional moral lesson. Raise a cup to the Westering Sun, but keep your sword sharp, boots dry and water bottle full, as that's all you can depend on.

And regarding the Book of Ecclesiastes, even I'm more positive than that.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkienist, 7th Age, living in Arda: "Well, daughter, why do you think Eru allows natural disasters to happen?"

Daughter of the 7th Age: "Well, dad, that's a problem only if you think the world should be in statis and perfection an unchanging state. Yet if you recognise that the world and life are in a constant state of flux and that the true nature of life is change, then you won't be so hung up on thinking that natural disasters represent an evil change. Chaos is part of life, just as birth and death are. We can supply our own ethics of how we think human beings ought to respond, but to think that good is a state of unchanging perfection, well, that's just more patriarchal, masculinist claptrap, Dad. Vanity, thy name is man. Think Ecclesiastes."

I can only agree with that!

Why do we never read anything of what happens to the Vanyar in Valinor? If it was so beautiful and perfect why didn't Tolkien write about this? Because what was happening in Middle-earth was infinitely more interesting. It was in Middle-earth that we could see pity and glory and joy, and it was there that we could see Eru's intentions best of all. Valinor is boring. Had Tolkien just written about Valinor it would have been like the kind of tedious pap you can read in the platitude columns in Reader's Digest or the People's Friend. I don't want to read about some simpering Elf Princess and her beautiful hair and her embroidery, I want to read about Frodo and Gollum and Boromir and Saruman!

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OK, it's Lalwendë's post actually...

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Judging by the Ainulindale, wherein virtually everything the Valar built was *almost* undone by Melkor, the Arda we wound up with is nothing like the original intent of Manwe & Co. Reminds me a bit of the part of Big Bang Theory in which the proportions of matter and antimatter were nearly equivalent, and annihilated each other, and the very tiny excess of matter is what was left.

Anyway, as to natural disasters- one of the late essays (can't be bothered to look for it) points out that Mordor was the way it was, and so named 'Black Land', before Sauron ever set up shop there- it was a leftover from Melkor's primal Marring. So if volcanoes stem from that source, there's no reason to exclude earthquakes, and weather patterns that produce storms.

[littlemanpoet]

It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

It seems to me that the logical conclusion a 7th Age Tolkienist must reach, barring any "outside influences" from the 1st Century of our present era, is the Nordic world view with its code of honor and dark, cold, windblown skies, and Ragnarok over the horizon.

Why is this pesimism the logical conclusion? And would it take precedence over the required estel on behalf of Men? The Athrabeth puts great emphasis on the role of good Men in fulfilling Eru's design, so I would say the contrary would be true.

[littlemanpoet]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Why is this pesimism the logical conclusion? And would it take precedence over the required estel on behalf of Men? The Athrabeth puts great emphasis on the role of good Men in fulfilling Eru's design, so I would say the contrary would be true.

You will recall from The Silmarillion that "good men" were a rarity even in the First Age. Only three Houses of Men could stake claim to the epithet. The Akallebêth shows that the greatest of the Good Men were prone to great evil.

Those Men who had never mixed with the Eldar were surely less likely to become "good men" than those who had. Throughout the history of Middle Earth, "good men" are the exception rather than the rule. They are always Northern, which is an interesting aspect of Tolkien's set-up that deserves discussion in its own right.

Anyway, as Tolkien shows, Men tend to forget, unless constantly reminded, about such personages as Eru and the particularities of the Valar. Therefore, the best, that is the Northern line of men, loses the bedrock for its code of honor but keeps the code because it makes sense in terms of the hard life they live. Death comes quickly. Winter bites deeply. The laws of bloodshed and vengeance take primacy. Thus the pessimism of a brutal world.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by littlemanpoet

They are always Northern, which is an interesting aspect of Tolkien's set-up that deserves discussion in its own right.

I believe it is safe to assume that Rohan and Gondor have always been significant havens for such good Men.

Those Men who had never mixed with the Eldar were surely less likely to become "good men" than those who had.

I don't think that propensity towards evil is a must for all Men. Rather, I would expect that, in later ages, when there is no other highly corrupting mythological incarnation of evil, a larger portion of Men would develop desirable character traits.