The Best Adaptions

[MatthewM]

MatthewM = two T's.

Originally Posted by Findulias

Ouch. MathewM, I have to say that I find your post painful.

First I have to say that your closing arguement was in my experience incorrect.

And also, you called his hair dark blonde. I don't think it is that light but I might not be remembering it correctly.)

Painful? Incorrect? Well you haven't had many discussions on the character then, have you?

I did not call his hair dark blonde. I called it the lightest shade of brown.


You have some sound points, "Boromir88", for your argument, but I feel as if you are only glimpsing at the silver lining, and not looking at his portrayal as a whole in the films. I would also like to say that I do not dislike the films at all- I love them, as a matter of fact- but Boromir was not best portrayed, not by a long shot. I never said Bean didn't do a great job with the character, I agree that he understood Boromir well...I'm not blaming the faults on Bean, he did a great job, but he was too old looking for the character. Not the best for Tolkien's Boromir, and surely not the best adapted from book to film, personality wise, appearance wise, and accomplishments wise. We'll put all the fault on PJ. How's that? Where to start...

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Appearance, costume, hair...etc really isn't the actors fault, so when I think of portrayal I don't consider too much about all that. I think did the actor bring out his/her character in the book? When I see Sean Bean on screen can I think of Boromir of Lord of the Rings? And I would say I can!

Of course you can think of him as Boromir- he played him. How can you not consider apperance when you think of portrayal? The way a character looks, especially when it was described so well in the books, should be carefully adhered to, not neglected like PJ so often did.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

However, let's look at a few more things with that extended scene in Osgiliath.

The extended scene definitely shows the love between the two brothers quite well I would say. It shows their brotherly bond and Boromir standing up for/defending Faramir.

And that scene is the only way PJ could have pulled that off? There were tons of different ways to have shown the love and bond between Boromir and Faramir. The scene does show their bond, but that does not make up for the rest of the atrocities of this scene.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well, as much as I hate to admit it book Boromir could also be quite childish...eventhough this was changed in the movies, lets not forget it was Boromir who through the stones disturbing 'The Watcher.' Also, he is a man that struggled taking orders and did indeed show a little bit of contempt when things didn't go his way.

Well, let's look at it from Boromir's view. Here he is, at the entrance to Moria, a place he did not even want to go, with some brilliant wizard who supposedly knows endless lore, magic, and wisdom of Middle-earth...and he can't even open the door? I would have thrown a stone to pass some time as well! What is so childish about it? Surely when a grown man throws a stone in the water he is not deemed "childish" in a negative way. How was Boromir supposed to know a hideous monster dwelled within the water?

And as you said, Boromir was not used to taking orders...he did his best.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

afterall didn't he say he would not go to Lothlorien unless if all the Company was against him?

At least he was a team player.

I still would not call it childish, anyway. If you do not want to go somewhere, you would say it, would you not? I would.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

At first Boromir does seem pretty unsure/unwilling of Aragorn being his King:

Boromir does say the Sword of Elendil would be a welcome to Gondor, that is if Aragorn isn't simply caring some old relic and he knows what he's doing. So, there is a little bit of tension here between Aragorn and Boromir (at their first meeting). Boromir is doubtful, Aragorn hasn't proven himself to Boromir yet, and afterall lets not forget this was also a son who asked his dad why wasn't he the king?

I find it odd that you chose to randomly address Boromir's relationship to Aragorn as I did not really mention it in my post. Is this a point on why you liked the movie Boromir? If so, why do you go on to explain yourself like you are defending the position? I never made any comment about the portrayal of the relationship of Boromir and Aragorn (which, I thought, was done rather well at some points, excluding some scenes like the EE scene when Aragorn tells Boromir that "he would not lead the Ring within a blah blah blah of your City") besides that movie Boromir was paranoid of Aragorn's intentions from the start. Which he was- and although in the books a similiar feeling was conjured (doubt in Boromir's eyes) like you said, book Boromir eventually accepts Aragorn's claim and conceals his desire for the Ring until his lust is awoken in Lorien. This is different than PJ's council. If you want to talk about a fumble in the relationship of movie Aragorn and Boromir, and a childish movie Boromir nontheless, how about the line-

"Gondor has no king...Gondor needs no king." (As he sits down with a pout)

We do not get what Tolkien's Boromir admitted, that the Sword of Elendil would be a hope and help to Minas Tirith.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would disagree with the 'grim' part, at least that's not how Eomer pictured him:
'Great harm is this death to Minas Tirith, and to us all. That was a worthy man! All spoke of his praise. He came seldom to the Mark, for he was ever in the wars on the East-borders; but I have seen him. More like to the swift sons of Eorl than to the grave Men of Godnor he seemed to me,'~The Riders of Rohan

Look at Eomer's last words in that sentence..."he seemed to me". That is Eomer's opinion alone. Boromir was, regardless of Eomer's opinion, a "grave man of Gondor", and doubtless Boromir would have defended that. A synonym for "grave" is "grim".

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Perhaps Boromir wasn't a 'partay animal' but as you said he definitely did rejoice in his victories...and as Faramir points out not only did he seek a restoration of the 'Glory of Gondor' but he wanted his own glory with it.

I do not recall saying he did not want any glory.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree, right from the get go Boromir wants the Ring...just in the books he seemed to do a better job suppressing his desire for the Ring (until after meeting with Galadriel)...but that desire began right from the start:

So, Boromir's desire for the Ring starts right there in Rivendell...and his championing for Gondor begins:

There's the key word...'weapon.' Right from the get go Boromir sees the Ring as a weapon and wants to use it (just as the movie portrays).

Now, what Jackson does do is show the Ring 'effecting' him a little sooner than the books. Boromir (in the books) was able to suppress his desires for the Ring until after Lothlorien (thats when he starts acting nervous, giving 'hard' stares at Frodo...etc), Jackson just decides to show the Ring growing on Boromir's mind a bit sooner. But this doesn't mean it's an inaccurate portrayal, the bottomline is the desire for using the Ring as a weapon was in Boromir right when he first sees it, in the movies and in the books.

Yet this quick lust that PJ shows grows ever quickly in the movies, which denotes the hard will of Tolkien's Boromir. It is true that Boromir wanted to use the Ring from the start, there is no denying that- but the fact that Boromir suppressed this lust until Galadriel tested him is saying a lot more of his character than all along having the Ring on his mind, which PJ's softer willed Boromir did. Even after Lorien (book) Boromir just wanted to go home, showing his right state of mind return, just before the temptation and lust for Ring consumes him as he attempts to take the "weapon" from Frodo.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree, many of those moments listed Jackson chose not to show...most likely because he didn't have time to show it all. But when we do see Boromir I don't think we can say he was as you put here

Lets not forget in the movies (as well as the books) it was Boromir with the suggestion to get off Caradhras because the Hobbits would freeze to death. Yep Jackson added that part in.

What is your argument here? How can you disagree when you yourself say that Jackson chose not to show Boromir's shining moments? He could have added them, if nothing else he could have contained them in the extended cut. Boromir's idea of burrowing through the shoulder-length snow of Caradhras saved the Company from freezing to death. You are going to defend that a just replacement for this great deed was that PJ's Boromir yells "this will be the death of the Hobbits!"? C'mon now.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Also, I would say his warrioresqueness showed in Moria when he was the one who went charging into the fray first, while the others stood back and shot or just waited. In the books Boromir is the one up front holding the door...they don't show it this way in the movies, but Jackson does do something similar with Boromir being the one charging into the Orcs.

I do not see this as any sort of replacement for book Boromir's yell of "Gondor!" as he ran towards the Balrog with Aragorn, willing to fight alongside Gandalf to his death.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And Boromir true gleaming moment in the spotlight which shows his absolute bravery is his defense of Merry and Pippin. Which the movie portrays absolutely stunningly...

Agreed, but his lore of survival and his physical strength that he contributed to the journey is on such a higher scale in the books. His deeds on Caradhras (suggesting wood for fire, burrowing through the snow) and in Moria are pivotal for his character, and as they were not shown in the films, people do not know of all the deeds Boromir the Brave accomplished in The Fellowship.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

When we watch the scene in the movie do we get the feeling of Boromir's first off amazing warrior qualities, and secondly this man who's trying to make up for an evil he just committed and for something he knows he did wrong? For me, it's a resounding yes...it is different from the books, but it still does the job, and does it quite well.

Agreed, yet PJ still does not include Boromir's smile. The smile, to me, is the most important part of Boromir's death. It is the sign and confirmation that Boromir understands, has repented, and is leaving Middle-earth without his worry and overbearing pride.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

It's only 'three' arrows...bah big deal

Wholeheartedly disagree. Before he fell Boromir received numerous arrow wounds all over the place. Three arrows is reducing that plenty. You can say three arrows is more realistic, but that is not Tolkien's Boromir- he did not fall until numerous arrows pierced him.

Side note- they got away with countless arrows in the warriors of the movie "300".

Originally Posted by Boromir88

he was still fighting and defending the hobbits after being shot twice in the chest, that's pretty darn heroic if you ask me.

Still heroic, yes. I teared at the scene as well...it is one of the best that PJ did in the trilogy, and the most touching. You are right that the point was made in the same way as the books. But was it accurate to the great warrior's strength? Not really.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I disagree here too...Now grant it there is an issue with time where I don't think you can really show everything. But I absolutely love what Bean and Jackson do with Boromir's character (excluding that scene with pops in the EE). I just want to touch on this...
'and Pippin gazing at him saw how closely he resembled his brother Boromir - whom Pippin had liked from teh first, admiring the great man's lordly but kindly manner.~The Siege of Gondor

This description from Pippin is great, and it breathes life to my image of Tolkien's Boromir. It also serves as opposite for what you are arguing for, in my opinion, because the word you did not highlight or comment on, lordly, did not come across in PJ's movies...in fact, what Jackson "did" was almost strip the character of this quality. Where was movie Boromir's lordly qualities? Did he leave them with the trail of pee that was left when he recoiled from an insane Denethor's wish to retreive a "kingly gift"?

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, in a nutshell, I would say Boromir was played and portrayed very well...if not the best. Sure Jackson changed around some scenes and showed things a little differently, but at the heart of it, what still remains is when watching Sean Bean on screen I got the feeling that he was Boromir, he was his part in the books

I disagree. Jackson changing scenes around and showing things a lot differently isn't kosher with me.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

We see his kind manner, we see his love for his brother and his people, we see his generalship, his warrior attitude, his vibrant youth, as well as his not so great traits...his childish-like behavior, his skepticism of Aragorn, and his desire for the Ring. We also see a developement in his relationship with Aragorn, when it first starts out a little rocky but grows and strengthens...all of which I think are present in the books and which are shown in the movies.

Yet how they were portrayed is a totaly different story.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Hey Guys, this is the Best adaptions, not the worst.
Although I do like that you both have good reasons to back up what you're saying.

Thanks ~TheGreatElvenWarrior

[Folwren]

Shelob. And I'm not joking. She was perfect. A huge spider, ugly, bulbous, and scary. Her lair was filed with old webs and half eaten carcasses, skelatons, and other nasty stuff. She was cunning and evil - consider, she squeezed out silently above Frodo, snuck around above him and essentially stabbed him in the back...only she waited for him to turn around so she could get his chest. Then when Sam came, she attacked him viciously. She knocked the phial out of his hand and out of his reach once. And then when she finally got stabbed, it was because she was trying to smash Sam and (just like in the book) it was her weight and strength that forced the blade up into her stomach. And then she twitched and jerked horribly in pain and she retreated, shuddering and shivering, into a hole.

The head Uruk Hai after Ugluk is killed by Aragorn was pretty well adapted.

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Eowyn was also very well adapted, save for the stew scene. *sigh* Oh well.

-- Folwren

[MatthewM]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Regardless of Matthew's adamant disagreement, I really like Boromir in the movie. I like him a lot in the books, too. They were one character I don't think they ruined.

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, however I am providing you with fact from Tolkien's own writing of the character in the books - the true authority - and the fact is that Boromir was wrongly portrayed from book to film in many aspects.

[Formendacil]

It's really interesting, Matt, watching you guys duke it out over the adaptation of Boromir's character. Reading your side of the argument, I'm finding myself inclined to agree with you, but reading between the lines I'd say you have a much higher estimation of Book-Boromir's character than I did.

It's interesting therefore, for me to note that while you see Movie-Boromir and you see a less-noble character than Book-Boromir, whereas I, who had a much lower estimation of Book-Boromir, found myself raising my estimation of him as a result of Movie-Boromir.

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved. I shaded my Boromir darker than your lordly Boromir, and so one ends up with completely different evaluations of the movie version.

So, while your argument--with the assistance of Movie-Boromir's groundwork--certainly leaves me with a higher, and justifiably so, estimation of the character of Boromir, I have to state that I always found him to be one of my favourite (in a true-to-the-book sense) adaptations to the film.

[Boromir88]

The lovely thing about reading books is the amount of imagination involved.~Formendacil

Excellent point and thats the creativeness of JRR Tolkien. We have one description, one paragraph, but are able to imagine/interpret it several different ways. As I think you can see from this thread all three of us have similar, yet different views of Boromir's character. And I don't think one of us is more 'right' than any other, as we all have good reasons for imagining Boromir the way we do. That's what a good book does, opens up the imagination, and supports several different perspectives.

And I know what happens with me, is when I get an idea into my head everything I find often seems to go to support my particular view...I'm a very biased person . That's where discussions like this really help me out and gets me seeing things a bit differently (even though I disagree and I still think I'm right. )

but Boromir was not best portrayed, not by a long shot.

I think I can agree with ya there...he wasn't the best portrayed simply because of that Osgiliath scene in the EE I think would be enough to show that he wasn't the best portrayed. I was just making an argument as to what I thought the movies got right about him.

How can you not consider apperance when you think of portrayal?

I do consider appearance, I just said I don't think too much into the 'appearance' part. As I did criticize Sam, Merry, and Pippin's appearance in the film, it would be a bit hypocritical for me then to say appearance doesn't matter in Boromir's portrayal.

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

The scene does show their bond, but that does not make up for the rest of the atrocities of this scene.

I can think of them seperately as they try to show two different things about Boromir...one (the love between the two brothers) which is a good and accurate portrayal. The other his bowing to Daddy's wishes and going to Rivendell as an undercover agent (something completely wrong and I absolutely wish that scene never made it in). Since, I do think they are portraying two seperate things I don't think one makes the other 'worse,' nor does one make the other 'better.'

How was Boromir supposed to know a hideous monster dwelled within the water?

Interesting take on things, I think I saw it as childish because I imagined it as something Pippin would do...not the 'Captain-General' of Gondor. It seemed that Boromir acted more out of anger than anything else...it wasn't like he was skipping rocks to try to keep himself entertained:

'How I hate this foul pool!' He stooped and picked up a large stone he cast it far into the dark water.
[...]
'Why did you do that, Boromir? said Frodo. 'I hate this place, too, and I am afraid...I am afraid of the pool. Don't disturb it.'~A Journey in the Dark

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

I still would not call it childish, anyway. If you do not want to go somewhere, you would say it, would you not? I would.

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

And there are other times when he has some sarcastic remarks...who was it that said sarcasm was the lowest form of wit?

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Is this a point on why you liked the movie Boromir? If so, why do you go on to explain yourself like you are defending the position? I never made any comment about the portrayal of the relationship of Boromir and Aragorn

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal. Where I thought Aragorn's claim to the throne of Gondor, at least at first, was something that slightly unnerved/skeptical of Aragorn.

I do agree though that the movies do not show the 'lordly' quality of Boromir when it comes to this part. As the lordly Boromir of the books, eventhough he seemed to not like Aragorn's claim (at the Council), Frodo does say that he always treated Aragorn with respect. And Faramir points out that Boromir was that type of person...this I do agree is missing in the movies.

Look at Eomer's last words in that sentence..."he seemed to me". That is Eomer's opinion alone.

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

but the fact that Boromir suppressed this lust until Galadriel tested him is saying a lot more of his character than all along having the Ring on his mind, which PJ's softer willed Boromir did

I concede, that's a good point.

What is your argument here? How can you disagree when you yourself say that Jackson chose not to show Boromir's shining moments?

My argument was eventhough Jackson did not have the warg scene, directing the boats through Sarn Gebir...etc Boromir's strength and what he does for the Fellowship I think still shows up in the movie. As I mentioned he is the one carrying Merry and Pippin up Caradhras, and he is the one to suggest to turn back. I haven't seen the extended fight of Moria in a long time, so I'll have to get back to you...I do just remember Aragorn coming in to save his arse. But anyway, I was saying eventhough Jackson doesn't add any of those scenes, I still think Boromir's greatest asset to the Fellowship...his strength/fighting prowess, shows up in other places during the movie.

Agreed, yet PJ still does not include Boromir's smile.

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well. It speaks back to Aragorn and Gandalf's words about Boromir 'conquering in the end,' the 'final note' Aragorn and Boromir end on...there may have been tension along the road but they both realized they were brothers in the same conflict. The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though.

Side note- they got away with countless arrows in the warriors of the movie "300".

That was so the famous line 'Then we'll fight in the shade' makes sense.

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

[MatthewM]

Formendacil, if I have given a higher air to the way you see Boromir, I am satisfied. And you're right- everyone sees Tolkien's world in their own way. Like Boromir88 said, that is part of what makes these books so amazing.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I just don't consider it to be big deal when compared to traits and personality...as for me, thats what I think about the most when it comes to portrayal. Did Bean and Jackson get Boromir's mannerisms and personality correct? As its those things which 'bring the character to life on screen', for me, where somebody else may be different and place their emphasis on...say Boromir's appearance.

I put a much higher emphasis on appearance, I always have. Personality and mannerisms are just as important to me...because for me if an actor is playing the part (from book to movie) well, yet fails to coincide with the book in appearance (and vice versa) I can't see the portrayal as authentic as some might.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I see it as rather childish because he's angry (maybe about having to go through Moria?) and so he just throws in a giant rock.

Hm, I actually forgot that Boromir says that before he throws the stone into the water. I suppose it was a bit childish then, yet I can understand his anger as he did not want to enter Moria, and the whole Company was backing some wizard who couldn't open a door, and who his father wasn't too sure of.

Speaking of childish, and personality and mannerisms, I seem to have forgotten one of the worst scenes PJ ever filmed concerning Boromir and his personality, and this scene is right up there in filth with the EE Osgiliath scene...I can't believe I forgot to mention it sooner. Now here is an example of why movie Boromir is childish, far more childish than anyone could say about book Boromir- Aragorn is sitting peacefully in a part of Rivendell, where there is a huge moral depicting the defeat of Sauron during the Second Age, when Isildur cut the Ring off Sauron's hand. Not far away stands a statue that holds the Shards of Narsil. Boromir enters, says nothing to Aragorn, actually picks up the broken hilt, traces his finger across it while talking to himself- "The blade that cut the Ring..." (while almost reinacting what happened), then cutting his finger on it by accident ("still sharp...") he finally notices that Aragorn has been staring him down. Boromir looks with fear at Aragorn, and concludes with "but no more than a broken hilt". With that, Boromir hastily puts the hilt back on its resting place, and it falls down and clangs an obnoxious noise. Boromir turns his head, looks at it- not giving a hoot less, and walks away.

Talk about childish...I rest my case in saying that this movie Boromir, in this scene especially, can not even compare to book Boromir. There is no lordliness, as we know, in Bean, and there is absolutely no kindliness in this scene. Instead there is complete disrespect to Boromir's own country (which we know would never have happened in the books) and complete disrespect to Boromir's character alone. In fact, this scene is so demoralizing to Boromir's character as is the Osgiliath scene that I do not even consider either of them to be portrayal's of Boromir- I can't even give them the credit of being PJ's Boromir in his more finer scenes.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

I would too, and Boromir being the leader that he was back in Gondor it's more understandable that he would be the one objecting, since he was used to the leadership role and getting things done his way. However, I think its the way he reacts (like he does at the Gates of Moria)...it seems a lot like frustration; and rather like a tantrem. Instead of just objecting and saying 'I don't think this is a good idea' I think it's just the way I read the remark...It reminds me of something I would do as a kid, when I didn't want to go some where...'If dad's not going I don't have to either!.'

I don't see any sort of tantrem in Boromir's words (concering the direction of the Nine Walkers after Moria), perhaps a bit of frustration because no one has really been listening to his opinion concerning where The Fellowship should go. I still can't see this disagreeing as childish, as he was so accustomed to giving orders and already weary from what he heard in Gondor (about Lorien)- but I'm sure everyone reads the remarks differently.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'~The Great River

I think this is both sarcastic and ironic. Sarcastic because Boromir doesn't agree with the path Aragorn wants to take and he's making some little jabs at it. Ironic because it is Boromir who arguably goes 'leaping down the falls' into 'the marshes.'

Nice catch, I love Boromir's sarcasm here. I've never picked up on that irony- again, nice catch.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Aye, sorry about that little confusion. I was saying that I liked that part of the movie with Boromir and I went on to explain growth in their relationship. Sorry, if I misunderstood but I thought you were saying Boromir acting 'paranoid' about Aragorn's claim was a wrong portrayal.

A misunderstanding it was! No worries!

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Yes, it was Eomer's opinion, but I think we can take it to be true. As Eomer says he had seen Boromir before, and in seeing Boromir he seemed more like the 'swift sons of Eorl' than those 'grave men in Gondor.' And eventhough Boromir was from Gondor, Eomer seperates him from the 'grave men of Gondor.' Also, I think his passion for Gondor (and for Gondor's victory) shows that he was not like the typical 'grave' men of his country.

I still think it's just Eomer's opinion, just because, like Boromir (to Gondor), Eomer was tremendously devoted to Rohan and I can see how he would push his patriotism of "the swift sons of Eorl" to one of the few Gondorians Eomer (most likely) knew- Gondor's greatest. I also see Eomer's words as a bit of a generalization- he's lumping all men of Gondor as grave, and all of Rohan swift. Obviously, there are grave men and swift men in both countries. I do agree of course with Eomer's praise of Boromir and his kind words about him, I just don't take his "more like to the swift sons of Eorl" speel seriously.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

And I agree with you about the smile...I'll have to watch the scene again (as I haven't seen the movie in a little while). But I do vaguely remember Boromir expressing a certain hapiness/peacefulness before he dies. I'll take your word that he doesn't smile, but Aragorn does lay Boromir's sword in his hand and Boromir brings it to his chest...then I think Aragorn kisses him on the forehead, which I think all shows the final end of Boromir quite well.

The 'smile' shows Boromir's end is a peaceful one, and I think this is still shown in the movies...the smile probably would have been easier and better though

I'm pretty sure when movie Boromir says his last lines "I would have followed you..." he smiles a little bit, but it wasn't the same as I picture it in the book, one because the very last thing Boromir does in the book was smile, not say the line "my king". Yes quite knitpicky, I know, but very vital in my opinion. The smile is the resolution from Boromir's mistake and overwhelming pride he displayed while trying to wrestle the Ring from Frodo, and the smile is, in my opinion, what ties into one of the most beautiful lines in all of the book-

"But in Gondor in after-days it long was said that the elven-boat rode the falls and the foaming pool, and bore him down through Osgiliath, and past the many mouths of Anduin, out into the Great Sea at night under the stars." - The Departure of Boromir

For me this confirms 100% that through his last defense of the hobbits, Boromir was forgiven, not only by himself, but by the higher powers of Middle-earth.

Like you said, in the movie they could have done it much better.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, now that I look at it, I think the main disagreement comes with just how we think of 'portrayal.' Particularly around Boromir's death scene. Eventhough if Jackson alters the scene and changes it, I think the message is still there. I get the same feeling watching it on screen as I did reading the books, Jackson just shows the 'final stand' differently. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is your argument then that the way Jackson portrays the scene...although delivers the same feelings, it doesn't show Boromir's strength and bravery to the extent the books do with Boromir's death? Therefor, the portrayal, allthough isn't wrong, it's not as good as it could have been?

Exactly.

So, although we disagree on certain aspects, I think we agree on a lot as well. It has been good having this discussion!