Sauron vs. Your Mama - A Discussion of Power in Middle-earth

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Your theory is fine, but for practical purposes I (as an inhabitant of M-e) have to decide which one is right & which one is wrong, & whose side I will be on. And to do that I have to have a set of standards by which I make a judgement - unless I resort to tossing a coin. I can only decide 'X' is good & 'Y' is evil according to a strict, pre-existing set of standards.

Well, it doesn't look like a M-e inhabitant would have it going any easier than us. They too are required Estel in Eru's works. I don't see any objective standard to be usable by a limited being, seeing that its "perfection" cannot be translated into results if we only have, limited as we are, inadequate information. In the end, it all comes down to making the best attempt, with the best of intentions, whether in thought or in action, no matter the magnitude of deceit and doubt facing us.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Well, it doesn't look like a M-e inhabitant would have it going any easier than us. They too are required Estel in Eru's works. I don't see any objective standard to be usable by a limited being, seeing that its "perfection" cannot be translated into results if we only have, limited as we are, inadequate information. In the end, it all comes down to making the best attempt, with the best of intentions, whether in thought or in action, no matter the magnitude of deceit and doubt facing us.

Yet when Eomer asks: 'How shall a man judge what to do in such times?'
Aragorn:'As he ever has judged. Good and ill have not changed since yesteryear; nor are they one thing among Elves and Dwarves : and another among Men. It is a man's part to discern them.'

So discerning between good & ill is a requirement, based on some kind of 'eternal', or at least pre-existing standard. In fact it is a man's part - an obligation if you will. But what then is the source of this pre-existing standard? A)Men's (& by extension, Elves' & Dwarves') ancestors - ie a creaturely 'invention'? B)The Valar? Or C) Eru himself?

If A) is this creaturely invention consonant with some kind of divine standard? Does it just happen to correspond to a divine standard, or is it at odds with such a divine standard?

If B) Is this 'demi-urgic' invention consonant with a divine standard set down by Eru, or is it at odds with it?

If C) Is this divinely authorised standard a reflection of Eru's own personal moral value system, or at odds with it?

Whatever, Aragorn clearly states that there is an objectively existing Moral value system by which Men & other self-conscious incarnates should judge between right & wrong. Aragorn clearly trusts Eru to be 'good' & not 'evil' & he must base this trust on a value judgement.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

But what then is the source of this pre-existing standard?

Well, I would say it is ultimately Eru; but afterwards, everyone else had a hand in it. He directly taught the Men and the Valar; the valar taught directly the elves and Aule the dwarves. In turn, the elves were the primary teachers of the Men, and Men probably took from dwarves a little bit more than just parts of their language. Afterwards, each and every society of Men would build various cultural "lenses" through which such teachings are interpreted. And ultimately, all understanding is subjective. And even if we remove all these personal, cultural and historical layers, and would somehow have access to the original revelation, I doubt we can derive from that how would a God see good in its ultimate complexity, seeing that many, if not most, of the mysteries of life and creation are hidden.