Rowling's Goblins = Tolkien's Dwarves? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lalaith · 07-29-2007, 01:29 PM

Yes, I thought that too, Estelyn, particularly with the most recent book.
I don't think there is much to compare between Tolkien orcs (TO) and Rowling goblins (RG). RG have a great sense of aesthetics, creative pride and some honour. TO have none.
I would also add, to the Dwarf comparison (without I hope spoiling anyone) that RG value those who honour their race in the same way that Dwarves do. But I would say that Dwarves are generally a more sympathetic and decent bunch of beings.

Bêthberry · 07-29-2007, 09:01 PM

Related to Rowlings' goblins I think is her handling of the theme of race generally, of what she does with this idea of Muggle, Half-Muggle, Pure Wizard, and what happens to those who perpetuate such distinctions. She doesn't uphold the special distinction which Tolkien does for the half-elven.

Can't say more for fear of spoilers.

Lalwendë · 07-30-2007, 03:13 AM

The crucial difference to me is that Rowling's Goblins do not have the sense of honour that Dwarves possess. If you were a Man or an Elf in Middle-earth and you made the friendship of a Dwarf then you would have a loyal friend for life who would defend you. The same is not necessarily true of Goblins in the Wizarding world. The Goblins are also much more possessive creatures with regard to the artefacts they create.

But then this is a big difference between Middle-earth and the Wizarding world. The former is more integrated and races and creatures seem to have a keen awareness of each other whereas in the Wizarding world you get the idea that so much more is unknown and untested - Wizards do not and seemingly cannot really ever understand the true 'nature' of the perilous magic possessed by other beings such as Goblins, Centaurs and House-Elves.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 07-30-2007, 03:41 PM

It's true about the similarity of Goblins and Dwarves in that they craft something the other races cannot etc. But from my point of view, the Goblins of Rowling are more similar in their nature not to the typical Dwarves we know (like Thorin and Gimli and all these folks), but more (and it's the same with the House-elves and so on) the folk oppressed or overlooked by the other races, like the Petty-Dwarves (quite a lot, I think), or even the Drúedain.

Hmm... looks like while avoiding spoilers, I cannot write much more I would say... but I think I said the main things I wanted.

And also - well, I think you can see something similar to Tolkien's Goblins in Rowling's Goblins anyway. Sometimes, just sometimes. Again, in the chapter "Shell Cottage", there is mentioned that even Rowling's Goblin could be unexpectedly bloodthirsty, to laugh at the idea of pain in lesser creatures... then perhaps they could be compared to Tolkien's Goblins, even Orcs.

Elmo · 08-02-2007, 07:13 AM

I don't think we can take Griphook to represent an entire species, imagine if the goblins did that with Lord Voldemort!

Griphook was a kind of extreme Goblin nationalist. Look at his views on goblin ownership, Rowling said in an interview they were an example of a fanatic. Dwarves had their bad bunch as well, apparently all the houses of Dwarves in the far east turned evil.

Legate of Amon Lanc · 08-02-2007, 11:09 AM

Just a note, Elmo: Concerning the views on goblin ownership, we are told that not by a goblin, but by Bill Weasley who worked with them, as it's said in, I think, the first book, or second...?

Elmo · 08-03-2007, 03:10 AM

Bill actually says that Griphook and the fiercest of his kind believe that the hereditry of goblin made items is theft so for a goblin, Griphook - as they say in Yorkshire - was a bad 'un.

sallkid · 08-03-2007, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lalaith

Yes, I thought that too, Estelyn, particularly with the most recent book.
I don't think there is much to compare between Tolkien orcs (TO) and Rowling goblins (RG). RG have a great sense of aesthetics, creative pride and some honour. TO have none.
I would also add, to the Dwarf comparison (without I hope spoiling anyone) that RG value those who honour their race in the same way that Dwarves do. But I would say that Dwarves are generally a more sympathetic and decent bunch of beings.

There are similarities and differences, dwarves in TO fought against the power of mordor, whereas the goblins in HP always attempted to remain completely neutral in the affairs of wizards.

another similarity is that Gringotts (the wizard bank) is guarded by goblins "So you'd be mad to rob it" and from what we know of tolkien dwarves they don't take kindly to robberry either.

07-29-2007, 01:29 PM	#1
Lalaith Blithe Spirit Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 2,779	Yes, I thought that too, Estelyn, particularly with the most recent book. I don't think there is much to compare between Tolkien orcs (TO) and Rowling goblins (RG). RG have a great sense of aesthetics, creative pride and some honour. TO have none. I would also add, to the Dwarf comparison (without I hope spoiling anyone) that RG value those who honour their race in the same way that Dwarves do. But I would say that Dwarves are generally a more sympathetic and decent bunch of beings. __________________ Out went the candle, and we were left darkling

07-29-2007, 09:01 PM	#2
Bêthberry Cryptic Aura Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 6,003	Related to Rowlings' goblins I think is her handling of the theme of race generally, of what she does with this idea of Muggle, Half-Muggle, Pure Wizard, and what happens to those who perpetuate such distinctions. She doesn't uphold the special distinction which Tolkien does for the half-elven. Can't say more for fear of spoilers. __________________ I’ll sing his roots off. I’ll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch away.

07-30-2007, 03:13 AM	#3
Lalwendë A Mere Boggart Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: under the bed Posts: 4,737	The crucial difference to me is that Rowling's Goblins do not have the sense of honour that Dwarves possess. If you were a Man or an Elf in Middle-earth and you made the friendship of a Dwarf then you would have a loyal friend for life who would defend you. The same is not necessarily true of Goblins in the Wizarding world. The Goblins are also much more possessive creatures with regard to the artefacts they create. But then this is a big difference between Middle-earth and the Wizarding world. The former is more integrated and races and creatures seem to have a keen awareness of each other whereas in the Wizarding world you get the idea that so much more is unknown and untested - Wizards do not and seemingly cannot really ever understand the true 'nature' of the perilous magic possessed by other beings such as Goblins, Centaurs and House-Elves. __________________ Gordon's alive!

07-30-2007, 03:41 PM	#4
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	It's true about the similarity of Goblins and Dwarves in that they craft something the other races cannot etc. But from my point of view, the Goblins of Rowling are more similar in their nature not to the typical Dwarves we know (like Thorin and Gimli and all these folks), but more (and it's the same with the House-elves and so on) the folk oppressed or overlooked by the other races, like the Petty-Dwarves (quite a lot, I think), or even the Drúedain. Hmm... looks like while avoiding spoilers, I cannot write much more I would say... but I think I said the main things I wanted. And also - well, I think you can see something similar to Tolkien's Goblins in Rowling's Goblins anyway. Sometimes, just sometimes. Again, in the chapter "Shell Cottage", there is mentioned that even Rowling's Goblin could be unexpectedly bloodthirsty, to laugh at the idea of pain in lesser creatures... then perhaps they could be compared to Tolkien's Goblins, even Orcs. __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

08-02-2007, 07:13 AM	#5
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	I don't think we can take Griphook to represent an entire species, imagine if the goblins did that with Lord Voldemort! Griphook was a kind of extreme Goblin nationalist. Look at his views on goblin ownership, Rowling said in an interview they were an example of a fanatic. Dwarves had their bad bunch as well, apparently all the houses of Dwarves in the far east turned evil. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

08-02-2007, 11:09 AM	#6
Legate of Amon Lanc A Voice That Gainsayeth Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: In that far land beyond the Sea Posts: 7,431	Just a note, Elmo: Concerning the views on goblin ownership, we are told that not by a goblin, but by Bill Weasley who worked with them, as it's said in, I think, the first book, or second...? __________________ "Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories

08-03-2007, 03:10 AM	#7
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	Bill actually says that Griphook and the fiercest of his kind believe that the hereditry of goblin made items is theft so for a goblin, Griphook - as they say in Yorkshire - was a bad 'un. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.