The Hobbit in July 2007?

[Sauron the White]

Smoking in real life and smoking in depictions of Middle-earth are two different things. Why cannot some people keep that straight? Smoking throws hundreds of noxious chemicals and poisons into the air and is a public health hazard. Governments, groups and individuals are correct to take proper and legal measures to discourage it, prevent it and get rid of it. Films and books are an art form and deserve the protections accorded all art. Tolkien was a smoker - immaterial. But was is material is that many of his characters were avid smokers in his creations. Nothing wrong with that if it is understood as part of the culture of that world and people which inhabit it.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

Smoking throws hundreds of noxious chemicals and poisons into the air and is a public health hazard. Governments, groups and individuals are correct to take proper and legal measures to discourage it, prevent it and get rid of it. .

Same goes for the 'infernal' combustion engine - only that's far, far worse. Car exhausts smell far worse & produce far more carcinogens than tobacco. Will the studios ban those exciting car chases? Mustn't show smoking to be cool, or we may encourage them to start, but its fine to show those cool dudes (in shades, natch) racing through the streets, or blasting the bad guys with mach 10's. Gun's 'r' cool. Fast cars 'r' cool. This whole thing is either a cash in or its hypocrisy.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

Same goes for the 'infernal' combustion engine - only that's far, far worse. Car exhausts smell far worse & produce far more carcinogens than tobacco. Will the studios ban those exciting car chases? Mustn't show smoking to be cool, or we may encourage them to start, but its fine to show those cool dudes (in shades, natch) racing through the streets, or blasting the bad guys with mach 10's. Gun's 'r' cool. Fast cars 'r' cool. This whole thing is either a cash in or its hypocrisy.

The "whole thing" is infinitely complicated by the fact that Hollywood was bought out by the tobacco industry years and years ago. Tobacco companies paid nicely for "product placement" as a way to promote the social acceptability and attractiveness of smoking and therebye increase cigarette sales. Even Ronald Reagan (while still just an actor) was hired to promote smoking.

So what is wrong with reversing decades of propaganda through hidden merchandising?

And there's no logical reason why one aspect, if it is proven harmful, should not be controlled or eliminated just because there are other equally harmful aspects that are yet to be controlled or recognised as harmful. It's called one step at a time.

Tolkien was hooked on nicotine. Bottom line, he was an addict. His substance was legal, but he was still an addict.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Tolkien was hooked on nicotine. Bottom line, he was an addict. His substance was legal, but he was still an addict.

No he wasn't. He was a smoker. There's no evidence to believe that he couldn't have stopped at any time he wanted. Of course as he was perfectly happy with his pipe I can't see that there was any problem. He managed to give up his car when he saw the damage the infernal combustion engine was doing to the environment & in my experience as a non driver, that is the real addiction. Fumes far, far more dangerous than any amount of second hand smoke, far more destructive to to humans & the environment, but can drivers give up their addiction to the car? Smoking is an innocent pleasure in comparison to the evils of the car, & the motor industry has Hollywood equally in its pocket - if not more so (& heaven knows how much profit Smith & Wesson made out of the Dirty Harry movies).

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

No he wasn't. He was a smoker. There's no evidence to believe that he couldn't have stopped at any time he wanted. Of course as he was perfectly happy with his pipe I can't see that there was any problem. He managed to give up his car when he saw the damage the infernal combustion engine was doing to the environment & in my experience as a non driver, that is the real addiction. Fumes far, far more dangerous than any amount of second hand smoke, far more destructive to to humans & the environment, but can drivers give up their addiction to the car? Smoking is an innocent pleasure in comparison to the evils of the car, & the motor industry has Hollywood equally in its pocket - if not more so (& heaven knows how much profit Smith & Wesson made out of the Dirty Harry movies).

Other than using a Palantir to peer into into Tolkien's mind--and the past--we do have some evidence that nicotine is a highly addictive drug that causes most people who attempt to give up smoking to go into withdrawal. Calling Tolkien simply a smoker is a fancy bit of denial--a common trait among addicts. Most smokers are addicted.

And Tolkien gave up driving a car when he realised what a hazard he was as a driver. He didn't stop using automobiles and would hire drivers to take him and his family on excursions, medical visits, etc.

Frankly, I think that when/if The Hobbit is ever shown on the big screen, it ought to come with trailers and adverts about lung diseases. Maybe even Gandalf coughing up and gasping for breath and reminding people that ships sailing west for healing were only available to Frodo and Gimli. Pictures of smokers' lungs would be pretty appetising beside those hobbit second breakfasts, too.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

Other than using a Palantir to peer into into Tolkien's mind--and the past--we do have some evidence that nicotine is a highly addictive drug that causes most people who attempt to give up smoking to go into withdrawal. Calling Tolkien simply a smoker is a fancy bit of denial--a common trait among addicts. Most smokers are addicted.

Yes, well, as Chesterton pointed out in the excerpt I gave earlier:

As I also have the habit, and have never been able to imagine how it could be connected with morality or immorality, I confess that I plunged with him deeply into an immoral life. In the course of our conversation, I found he was otherwise perfectly sane. He was quite intelligent about economics or architecture; but his moral sense seemed to have entirely disappeared. He really thought it rather wicked to smoke. He had “no standard of abstract right or wrong”; in him it was not merely moribund; it was apparently dead. But anyhow, that is the point and that is the test. Nobody who has an abstract standard of right and wrong can possibly think it wrong to smoke a cigar.

, its a habit, but its not a sin. People do lots of things which are bad for them. Smoking is also a very relaxing & quite pleasurable indulgence - & I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging. I further note in passing that 100% of non smokers die.

Frankly, I think that when/if The Hobbit is ever shown on the big screen, it ought to come with trailers and adverts about lung diseases. Maybe even Gandalf coughing up and gasping for breath and reminding people that ships sailing west for healing were only available to Frodo and Gimli. Pictures of smokers' lungs would be pretty appetising beside those hobbit second breakfasts, too.

And surely there should be trailers & adverts depicting the horrors of alcoholism in movies where beer is drunk, the horrors of road accidents where cars appear in movies, of aircrashes when planes appear, of the horrors of global warming whenever a movie has scenes of cows (the methane produced by cattle apparently being one of the greatest contributors to climate change), of the Inquisition whenever a movie has a priest appearing in it. And let's not miss the chance to show trailers about Aids when two people of the opposite sex appear on screen.

Or we could just leave folk to their indulgences & let them take their chances. Personally, I accepted that one day something is going to finish me off, whatever I do, or don't do. I don't lecture others as to what they should or shouldn't do - I' like to think I'm quite 'Hobbitish' in that way. If it shouldn't be shown on films without anti smoking adverts being shown I can't see that it should be permitted in the books with similar warnings (though I expect to find such warnings will appear fairly soon, to be followed, no doubt, by the smoking references being edited out, along with the mentions of over-eating, the consumption of beer & all mention of pubs, the pipeweed to be replaced by healthy snacks of carrot sticks & celery, & the pubs by gyms.) Hobbits smoke too much, drink too much & eat too much & they don't jog or preach.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, well, as Chesterton pointed out in the excerpt I gave earlier:

, its a habit, but its not a sin. People do lots of things which are bad for them. Smoking is also a very relaxing & quite pleasurable indulgence - & I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging. I further note in passing that 100% of non smokers die.

I am not quite certain why you keep including that Chesterton quote in the conversation, as he was neither an authority on the subject, nor entirely subjective. The man died in 1936 and obviously had no conception of the addictive nature of nicotine or the proven health risks. Needless to say, cocaine, morphine and heroin were legal in his lifetime (not even listed as controlled substances until WWI). G.K. might have had a Coca-Cola or two prior to 1903 laced with cocaine (an advertised ingredient up to that point).

I think that smoking for most long-term users is no longer a habit or a 'pleasurable indulgence' (that would include myself and my pack-a-day jones). I cannot merely smoke a single cigarette in a day without significant discomfort; whereas, I can drink several porters in a single sitting and go for weeks without another (which would be disconcerting and unnecessary perhaps, but quite doable).

However, that being said I do not believe that removing pipe-smoking from The Hobbit or adding warnings is warranted as the story takes place in another age altogether. I despise attempts to homogenize literature or film due to the expedience of political correctness, particularly in the film industry which seems to be picking and choosing its ethics, which in itself is unethical.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

, its a habit, but its not a sin.

I know. It's an absolute sin the way people take things in directions never meant. But if you want to talk about sin, I suppose you could explain if you mean smoking is not a venal sin or not a mortal sin. Myself, I've been talking about physiological addiction, so on that ground smoking would not be a sin, as it is no longer a voluntary act.

Originally Posted by davem

And surely there should be trailers & adverts depicting the horrors of alcoholism in movies where beer is drunk, the horrors of road accidents where cars appear in movies, of aircrashes when planes appear, of the horrors of global warming whenever a movie has scenes of cows (the methane produced by cattle apparently being one of the greatest contributors to climate change), of the Inquisition whenever a movie has a priest appearing in it. And let's not miss the chance to show trailers about Aids when two people of the opposite sex appear on screen.

Originally Posted by Morthoron

However, that being said I do not believe that removing pipe-smoking from The Hobbit or adding warnings is warranted as the story takes place in another age altogether. I despise attempts to homogenize literature or film due to the expedience of political correctness, particularly in the film industry which seems to be picking and choosing its ethics, which in itself is unethical.

Actually, I'm waiting to hear that the casting for The Hobbit will be colour blind. I can just imagine the dilemma between choosing an Asian actor for Bilbo and Blacks for the dwarves, or a Black actor for Bilbo and Asian ones for the dwarves. Or maybe they will make all the dwarves female actors, but of course we'd never know it. I'm sure that if they made Smaug green, leprecauns would object, so I suspect that is out for Smaug.

[Sauron the White]

There are great benefits to the internal combustion engine. Society as we know it would stop in its tracks without it. The lives of hundreds of millions of people would radically change as we know it.

You cannot say the same for smoking. No way - no how.

[Sauron the White]

I note in passing that the guy who invented jogging died from a heart attack while out jogging.

Someone with an actual name and historical record is credited as inventing jogging? That is incredible! I was under the impression that running was a natural human movement that the human race has been doing since it has been on two feet. To now discover that it was only recently invented and it killed its creator is some bit of information.