The Greatest Warrior...

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

Based on your criteria, I would place Hurin before Turin as the greatest mortal warrior. Hurin was far more selfless in his actions (particularly in the Nirnaeith Arnoediad), and defied Morgoth to his face (which was dauntless beyond measure). As someone stated previously, Tolkien refers to him as the "mightiest of the warriors of mortal men", and that's good enough for me. In addition, I was never really pleased at how Turin slew Glaurung (stabbing him while hidden underneath). It lacks the heroic stature of Azaghal standing bravely against Glaurung, Ecthelion versus Gothmog, or Hurin defiantly slaying 70 trolls without recourse to aid or escape. In that sense, I think Tolkien missed the boat and lessened the impact of Turin's deed.

I suppose one could argue that Hurin's defiance of Morgoth wasn't his smartest move, & provoked the curse which destroyed his family, hence one could question his intelligence. And as far as Hurin vs the Trolls & Azaghal vs Glauring against Turin vs Glaurung I would only note that Turin won.....

And that's not simply a throwaway line. It was impossible for Turin or anyone else to defeat Glaurung in a fair fight - which was Morgoth's intention. Turin's approach was the only one that had any chance of success. Of course, this wasn't a Beowulf vs the Dragon, 'St. George vs the Dragon' or even a 'Marduk vs Tiamat' 'fair fight'. It is, incidentally, very like the way Sigurd killed the Dragon Fafnir:

Sigurd succeeded by digging a pit under the trail Fáfnir used to walk to a stream and plunging his sword Gram into his heart as he walked past.

But in a way Turin's move is to be expected. Tolkien may have been steeped in legends & old lore, but (as we see from the in-fighting & realpolitik in the lead up to the Battle of Five Armies) he knew that the real world ain't like that, & that in a desperate situation, where your family & people are at risk, you do what's necessary. Turin did precisely what Beortnoth did not & took the strategically smart approach in dispatching his enemy.

This is what I meant about Turin being smart & learning from his experiences - sometimes he does learn the right thing - he faced Glaurung before in the ruins of Nargothrond & learned from that experience. Hurin would not have climbed the cliff & stabbed Glaurung in the guts, he would have faced him like Fingolfin faced Morgoth - & he would have lost in the same way. Turin defeats Glaurung by not behaving like a classic 'Hero' facing his mortal enemy, but by seeing & treating him as a bloody pest, as destructive vermin who needs eradicating to protect decent folk. Turin, in that act displays total contempt for Morgoth. Glaurung is Morgoth's greatest weapon, designed to be awesome, to inspire terror, & Turin dispatches him like Indy dispatches the swordsman in Raiders of the Lost Ark.

The killing of Glaurung is not the culmination, let alone the 'point' of the story - any more than the destruction of the Ring is the point of LotR. The point of both stories is what happens to the characters, not what they 'do', but the effect on them of what they do.