Other authors?

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I still am upset by Susan losing Narnia because she started liking boys and wearing lipstick.

The claim that Susan was denied Narnia because of cosmetics and sex was endurable when made by the Madonna of Modern Fantasy but I simply cannot let a fellow Downer go unchallenged on this point. Susan is not condemned for anything so trivial: she is condemned instead for "forgetting" Narnia and pretending that it was all a game. She lost her faith and her belief. In The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe Edmund's first (and, to my mind, worst) act of betrayal was his cruel denial that he and Lucy had been to another world, and his lie that he and she had only been pretending. He is redeemed of this lie but only after going through some terrible things. For Susan to turn around in her supposed maturity and thoughtlessly do the same thing is the height of arrogant pride and foolishness. She is not "kicked out" of Narnia any more than Satan was "kicked out" of Heaven--they are both rebels who turn away from their true home. (Very Important Note--I am not saying that Susan is Satan, nor am I suggesting that she is in any way shape or manner Satanic: I am merely making an analogy for the sake of illustrating my argument.)

And it does seem to me from what I have read in the popular press that Pullman enjoys saying outrageous things simply to garner more print and attention to himself. I simply cannot find any other explanation for some of his sillier claims; he is clearly an accomplished writer who has read the works of Tolkien and Lewis carefully so he is either being purposefully provocative or he has a far more intelligent and perceptive ghost writer!

As to the "obviousness" of the allegory in Lewis, I have three points:

1) The Narnia books are explicitly aimed at the child reader; for an adult to criticise a book for being obvious to an adult when it is intended for a much younger and more impressionable reader is a bit unfair--kind of like arguing that Sesame Street is a little too obvious because C always follows A and B!

2) I'm not so sure it's all that obvious at any rate even to most adults! I have taught LWW at the university level and been surprised every time by how few of the students -- even those who are actively Christian -- who don't get the Christ-Aslan relation! (Oh, and Narnia is explicitly NOT heaven as is made abundantly clear at the end of The Last Battle.)

3) I'm not even sure it's really an allegory either: Aslan is clearly a Christ-figure but that does not make him an allegorical representation of Christ: when Aslan exchanges himself for Edmund at the Stone Table it's a bargain he is making with a Satanic witch for the sake of an individual--not the unconditional offering up of himself for the sake of all humanity. He is a lion and never the lamb. So, sure, Aslan and the story narrates a particular kind of Christian relation but it does not pretend to be re-telling a Biblical orthodoxy.

[Lalwendë]

Pullman does no worse than any other modern writer by making controversial statements - they all do it over something or other. Tolkien himself wasn't averse to stirring things up a bit, he makes a sarcy comment in the introduction to Rings about what he thinks of his detractors (nice one, Tolkien)

And you can find statements elsewhere from Pullman where he gives Tolkien more praise; however nastiness sells copies of Sunday papers to the Brioche munchers of Islington, so that gets picked up on.

Personally, I didn't 'get' the Christian references in Lewis either and I picked those books up when still (just) a Christian. I just thought they were rubbish in comparison to Tolkien, who had I had just finished reading. Despite what the higher message of Lewis might be about Susan I still think them not great choices to give to a young girl to read unless she is possessed of strong self-esteem. Kids do look at 'surfaces' and seeing a girl condemned for something as normal as wearing lipstick is just not fair. Not saying young lasses should not read these books, just that there are now loads of far more appropriate books with better heroines.

I just wish I could find again the page on Gaiman's blog where he talks about his disappointment in finding out what Lewis said Narnia was 'about' - he says as a young lad he felt cheated. I'll keep looking for it...

I suppose my main beef with Narnia was just that it was so....twee.

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

I suppose my main beef with Narnia was just that it was so....twee.

Twee

1. Originally: ‘sweet’, dainty, chic. Now only in depreciatory use: affectedly dainty or quaint; over-nice, over-refined, precious, mawkish. (OED)

Always wondered about that...

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Fordim Hedgethistle

Twee

1. Originally: ‘sweet’, dainty, chic. Now only in depreciatory use: affectedly dainty or quaint; over-nice, over-refined, precious, mawkish. (OED)

Always wondered about that...

That's it. I find Narnia just a bit too quaint...

Not perilous enough for my tastes...It's OK, but compared to Middle-earth or multiple parallel universes you can cut into or rambling Gothic castles it's nowhere near as exciting. Even if it does have Turkish Delight (drooooooooool....).

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Originally Posted by Fordim

The claim that Susan was denied Narnia because of cosmetics and sex was endurable when made by the Madonna of Modern Fantasy but I simply cannot let a fellow Downer go unchallenged on this point. Susan is not condemned for anything so trivial: she is condemned instead for "forgetting" Narnia and pretending that it was all a game. She lost her faith and her belief. In The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe Edmund's first (and, to my mind, worst) act of betrayal was his cruel denial that he and Lucy had been to another world, and his lie that he and she had only been pretending. He is redeemed of this lie but only after going through some terrible things. For Susan to turn around in her supposed maturity and thoughtlessly do the same thing is the height of arrogant pride and foolishness. She is not "kicked out" of Narnia any more than Satan was "kicked out" of Heaven--they are both rebels who turn away from their true home. (Very Important Note--I am not saying that Susan is Satan, nor am I suggesting that she is in any way shape or manner Satanic: I am merely making an analogy for the sake of illustrating my argument.)

Hmm. Interesting.
I always thought that Susan forgot Narnia and began to believe it to be just a game (in other words, she lost it) BECAUSE she became interested in boys and lipstick. She wasn't, I agree, thrown out of Narnia...but I think she lost it or it let her go as her interests shifted, so she saw her memories of it as just a game. Perhaps this is because I just can't grasp the idea of having something so vivid as finding another (real) world through a wardrobe be dismissed years later as a game...at least, not without some kind of reason for it.

Perhaps I am guilty of over-thinking the incident. It does happen.

I think that the manner in which it was presented is an issue, then, if what she was really being punished for was her denial of Narnia. It could have functioned just fine on its own--Susan is all grown up and she looks back and laughs at their childish games, and can't believe that her siblings are still playing. Why, then, is the mention of boys and makeup necessary at all? It's as though Lewis is condemning those things, things that most girls can't help but be interested in (though I'll admit I never had much patience for makeup, myself). And even then, the issue is still there--Susan loses Narnia in the process of growing up...therefore, growing up is a bad thing...still not a particularly desirable message.

I see redemption/forgiveness/absolution as major themes of Christianity...I don't like the idea of a condemning God. I think a more powerful message would have been Susan being welcomed back in spite of those things. That would read more as the power of forgiveness and redemption as opposed to whoops, you lost your faith, too bad for you. That's probably moving into personal belief territory, where I'd rather not go, though.

I do agree with Lal--whatever messages Narnia sends, I think that perhaps a better series for young girls would be HDM, or even Harry Potter...and also that when I re-read it, it did seem to generally be missing something. Other books are more exciting, including HDM.

[Morthoron]

Personally, I prefer Lewis's Screwtape Letters to Narnia. Having read LWW once, I see no reason to ever read it again, as the plot is cloying and the hodgepodge of mythological references is contrived.

[Lalwendë]

If you compare Susan's treatment with Lyra's growing up, the latter has a much more positive view. Some say what happens to Lyra is negative and that Pullman is giving out the message that fantasy and fantasising are childish things (this may indeed have been davem - if not he can punish me with the washing up later...:P). But no. Without giving too much away, Lyra is told that she must stop telling lies (hence the name?) and instead tell the tales which she finds through living her life - a lesson that life is for living, that at the end of it you should have stories to tell. She is not stopped from adventuring (as shown in Lyra's Oxford and the promise of the Book of Dust), not stopped from operating in a fantastic world, but she is also not prevented from growing up. That's a fantastic message, especially for someone like me who is a grown up who loves magic and mystery. Much better than Peter Pan or Narnia where only the infantile are allowed access to magic.

Likewise with what JK Rowling does with her young female characters. They are allowed to have boyfriends and learn about being grown up while still operating in a magical world, and what's more she makes it cool to be clever.

[Morwen]

I loved the Chronicles of Narnia as a child and re read each book into a state of dog earred dinginess. I loved Lewis' talking animals and his magical world that you could get to through wardrobes and paintings. Narnia isn't really magical for me any more and I wouldn't recommend the books to an adult but I think the Chronicles are great books for children and since that was Lewis' target audience I would recommend them as such and have in fact done so.

Originally posted by Fordim
The claim that Susan was denied Narnia because of cosmetics and sex was endurable when made by the Madonna of Modern Fantasy but I simply cannot let a fellow Downer go unchallenged on this point. Susan is not condemned for anything so trivial: she is condemned instead for "forgetting" Narnia and pretending that it was all a game. She lost her faith and her belief. In The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe Edmund's first (and, to my mind, worst) act of betrayal was his cruel denial that he and Lucy had been to another world, and his lie that he and she had only been pretending. He is redeemed of this lie but only after going through some terrible things. For Susan to turn around in her supposed maturity and thoughtlessly do the same thing is the height of arrogant pride and foolishness. She is not "kicked out" of Narnia any more than Satan was "kicked out" of Heaven--they are both rebels who turn away from their true home. (Very Important Note--I am not saying that Susan is Satan, nor am I suggesting that she is in any way shape or manner Satanic: I am merely making an analogy for the sake of illustrating my argument.)

I agree. The "lipstick and nylon" criticism of Susan made by either Polly or Jill, IIRC is because the entire focus of Susan's life at that point was her appearance and invitations to parties. She isn't merely being criticised for having other interests. She no longer has time for anything else including talk of Narnia, dismissing all talk of it as a silly game that she and her siblings had played as children.
Of course the reason all the others are in "Narnia within Narnia" is are because they were all together when a particular event took place. If Susan had been with them where would she have ended up? Would she also have entered Narnia w/in Narnia but be in the position of the denying Dwarves?