Other authors?

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Have you actually read the book?

Nope. But I'm not denying that it may be well written, either. It most likely is.

The motivation behind writing it, however (specifically, to degrade CS Lewis), corrupts the entire work.

[Mithalwen]

So on what do you base your assertion? It is not stated in the article you link to . Pullman does not share Lewis weltanschauung and I disagree with both but that is immaterial to the quality of the work

The only similarity between Northern Lights and Narnia is that children cross into different worlds. If it a lampoon to write a story vastly superior both in technique and content on that hypothesis then so be it. In any case I sense the approach of off-topic skwerls...

[Andsigil]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

So on what do you base your assertion? It is not stated in the article you link to . Pullman does not share Lewis weltanschauung and I disagree with both but that is immaterial to the quality of the work

The only similarity between Northern Lights and Narnia is that children cross into different worlds. If it a lampoon to write a story vastly superior both in technique and content on that hypothesis then so be it. In any case I sense the approach of off-topic skwerls...

That's simply one article of many about Phillip Pullman and the views which he tries to impart in his stories. I find him to be "less than nice". Many "less than nice" people have talents but that fact doesn't make them better people. I'd rather not support him (or others like them) with royalties from my pocket, however small, and hope that others follow suit.

There are a lot of good stories out there which aren't written by uppity iconoclasts.

[davem]

Actually, some of the most 'Tolkienesque' stuff out there are the Icelandic Sagas. In terms of style, mood, narrative drive & subject matter you could almost be reading the Sil. CoH for instance, is a Saga - it follows the same structural rules - starting with the hero's genealogy & ending with his death. Morwen is a classical Saga 'mother figure'.

Be warned though, the Sagas can be pretty strong meat - if you found CoH too dark & intense I'd stick to Pullman & his ilk.

[Lalwendë]

There's so much tripe written about Pullman it's almost unbelievable, until you realise he provokes some of it himself. But hey, what's a writer of modern fantasy to do these days? You're inevitably compared to Tolkien whether you want to be or not (and Pullman is content to allow his books to be published with exactly those kinds of statements on the blurb!), and as a typically antsy, sarcastic Englishman, Pullman likes to wind a few people up now and then by having a pop at 'the great gods of fantasy'.

He might have some nasty words to say about Tolkien and Lewis - though his real ire is for Tolkien, not for Lewis - but remember he's trying to garner a market for himself, hopefully from amongst the many, many middle class readers out there who want some quality fantasy for their kiddies to read but who are suspicious of Tolkien (being that so many of us fans are fanatics and that kind of thing sends the average Islington parent running for the hills [or French Gite ]).

I don't hold it against him as the proof is in the pudding and His Dark Materials is one rich and tasty pudding with extra custard. Yep, the final book is a little odd, but it bears up to re-readings by which time it will become clear what he is on about. Pullman did not set out to lampoon Lewis at all, though if he had it might make me like the books even more as compared to HDM, Narnia is flaccid. I'm not a fan of Lewis by the way - he failed to weave any kind of magic on me alas, though I loved the film, Tilda Swinton was ace.

Yeah, davem's right, for Tolkien-esque go directly to some Icelandic sagas. Very readable, exciting, and stuffed full of mad characters. Njal's Saga is a fabulous blood feud that make you see exactly where the Silmarillion comes from.

Otherwise, for grown-up minds, try some Sandman. And for sheer class, Gormenghast.

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

I was going to recommend Northern Lights/The Golden Compass but found that it had already been done.

Just to chime in on the Pullman vs. Lewis and Tolkien thing, I think that it doesn't really matter, in this case, what spirit His Dark Materials was written in, since it's an excellently written story. As a Tolkien fan, just reading a book that I had no idea was written in that spirit (supposedly), I found nothing even remotely insulting to LOTR or Narnia in it. LOTR is the better book, of course, but The Golden Compass was still an excellent read. I strongly prefer the first book over the other two, though.

I think that if you, out of loyalty to Tolkien, or whatever, decide not to read it, all you're doing is denying yourself a very interesting (if dark) story--any money Pullman is going to make off you buying the book is probably water under the bridge at this point, anyway, particularly with that new movie coming out. If you really care that strongly about it, why not check it out of the library? Most libraries have it, at least that I've seen. You might have to hunt through the children's or young adult's sections to find it, though.

I on the whole like Tolkien better as a person. He seems to have been far less offensive...but who can blame Pullman for being opinionated? Let's face it, most of us are, these days.

And for the record, I absolutely see where Pullman is coming from with Narnia. I loved the books as a child. I read them with my mom, and felt really grown-up, because made it through so many big long books (I was probably about 6 years old), and because I wasn't nearly as upset over the Stone Table thing as she thought I would be/was herself. We did discuss the lion-as-Jesus thing, but I somehow missed the Narnia-as-Heaven thing. I was a kid. I wasn't particularly interested in religion, and had no concept of allegory. Nowadays, I agree with Tolkien: I dislike allegory--I much prefer applicability. I recently read Narnia again, prior to the movie release. I noticed the full allegory this time around. I kind of feel like it was symbolism with a sledgehammer. I resent anything, really, that pushes ideas on me without encouraging independent thought, and that's kind of what Narnia became. I still am upset by Susan losing Narnia because she started liking boys and wearing lipstick. I guess I'm going to hell, too. I did enjoy the movie, though, to be fair. There was no way to get around the Jesus thing, but on the whole, I didn't find it offensive. And Tilda Swinton stole the whole movie without even appearing to try.

Anyway...I guess that before I went off on that tangent, I was going to say that I don't really care what Pullman's opinions are on religion and/or Narnia. I didn't see much of that coming through in The Golden Compass, at least. I haven't read the second two in a very long time, so I could be missing something. There is no trace of anything offensive at all in any of the books, at least as far as I can remember.

As to other fantasy, I will admit that I read (and enjoy) Harry Potter, though it is not remotely Tolkien-esque. And that's actually about it, in terms of fantasy. I find too much of the rest of it all just reads the same and seems to lack originality. My younger brother really enjoys the many books by David Eddings. I read a few and I don't think he's even close to as complex as Tolkien, and he has a much more modern feel. I think they make ok summer reading...nothing special, and I got sick of them after about 3 books or so. They're not horrid, though, the way some fantasy is.
I wouldn't bother with Terry Brooks and Sword of Shannara. I was hoping for something Tolkienesque with that book, and I found it to be not much more than a rewrite of LOTR using different place names and character names.

I don't think Tolkien has an equal, but as I sad before, Pullman was the first name to spring to mind.

[Lalwendë]

What an excellent post! There is indeed a lesson in Pullman and that's not to listen to bluster about books being offensive or irreligious or anything like that - Pullman is actually incredibly knowledgeable about religion, scripture etc - and what's more, he is not anti-faith and is not anti-Catholic (the Magisterium is in fact based on Calvinism). He is indeed against religious intolerance though, and religion being used to dominate and is all for people thinking for themselves; honesty and living a full life is one of his main themes. He's an incredibly sensitive writer for children, and there's lots of 'meat' for the grown-ups too.

I have to say I'd feel far more comfortable with a child, particularly a girl, reading HDM than Narnia as the former gives them the message that they need to be brave and honest above all (Lyra has to be one of the all-time heroines of literature), the latter that they should never grow up, which is not such a great message. I'm interested because I do not know...was Narnia written before or after Joy Gresham?

What with Lyra and Hermione Grainger, we do have some fab, interesting heroines being created these days...

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

Originally Posted by Azaelia of Willowbottom

I still am upset by Susan losing Narnia because she started liking boys and wearing lipstick.

The claim that Susan was denied Narnia because of cosmetics and sex was endurable when made by the Madonna of Modern Fantasy but I simply cannot let a fellow Downer go unchallenged on this point. Susan is not condemned for anything so trivial: she is condemned instead for "forgetting" Narnia and pretending that it was all a game. She lost her faith and her belief. In The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe Edmund's first (and, to my mind, worst) act of betrayal was his cruel denial that he and Lucy had been to another world, and his lie that he and she had only been pretending. He is redeemed of this lie but only after going through some terrible things. For Susan to turn around in her supposed maturity and thoughtlessly do the same thing is the height of arrogant pride and foolishness. She is not "kicked out" of Narnia any more than Satan was "kicked out" of Heaven--they are both rebels who turn away from their true home. (Very Important Note--I am not saying that Susan is Satan, nor am I suggesting that she is in any way shape or manner Satanic: I am merely making an analogy for the sake of illustrating my argument.)

And it does seem to me from what I have read in the popular press that Pullman enjoys saying outrageous things simply to garner more print and attention to himself. I simply cannot find any other explanation for some of his sillier claims; he is clearly an accomplished writer who has read the works of Tolkien and Lewis carefully so he is either being purposefully provocative or he has a far more intelligent and perceptive ghost writer!

As to the "obviousness" of the allegory in Lewis, I have three points:

1) The Narnia books are explicitly aimed at the child reader; for an adult to criticise a book for being obvious to an adult when it is intended for a much younger and more impressionable reader is a bit unfair--kind of like arguing that Sesame Street is a little too obvious because C always follows A and B!

2) I'm not so sure it's all that obvious at any rate even to most adults! I have taught LWW at the university level and been surprised every time by how few of the students -- even those who are actively Christian -- who don't get the Christ-Aslan relation! (Oh, and Narnia is explicitly NOT heaven as is made abundantly clear at the end of The Last Battle.)

3) I'm not even sure it's really an allegory either: Aslan is clearly a Christ-figure but that does not make him an allegorical representation of Christ: when Aslan exchanges himself for Edmund at the Stone Table it's a bargain he is making with a Satanic witch for the sake of an individual--not the unconditional offering up of himself for the sake of all humanity. He is a lion and never the lamb. So, sure, Aslan and the story narrates a particular kind of Christian relation but it does not pretend to be re-telling a Biblical orthodoxy.