Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'.

I am not sure I follow; the term lunch is used several times in LotR in regards to the hobbits.

[Aiwendil]

Originally Posted by Davem

Hobbits, in short, never, ever have 'lunch'. Even something as trivial as that will jar some of us out of the story.

Originally Posted by A Long Expected Party

There were three official meals: lunch, tea, and dinner (or supper). But lunch and tea were marked chiefly by the fact that at those times all the guests were sitting down and eating together.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

Folco went home after lunch, but Pippin remained behind.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

After lunch, the Sackville-Bagginses, Lobelia and her sandy-haired son, Lotho, turned up, much to Frodo’s annoyance.

Originally Posted by Three's Company

‘The road goes on for ever,’ said Pippin; ‘but I can’t without a rest. It is high time for lunch.’

Originally Posted by Three's Company

After a rest they had a good lunch, and then more rest.

Originally Posted by A Shortcut to Mushrooms

It was now past mid-day, and they felt it was high time for lunch.

. . . all of which only goes to show that no one should be too hasty in declaring himself or herself an infallible judge of Tolkien's style. Though for what it's worth (which is probably not much), I do agree that 'Pengolodh snorted' is unsuitable.

Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Drigel,

I've made just 5 posts here out of 240, and it seems I'm already in hot water! I am sorry if the wording of my posts upset you but we hold different opinions on the long term fate of the Legendarium. As I said before, absolutely no one knows what is going to happen 100 or 500 years from now. You may be the one who is closer to the mark than I am. My opinion (and it is only an opinion) is that there will be people trying to retell this story. Tolkien's Legendarium, his total body of writings, is so different from most contemporary novels (even the very best of the best) that I believe its future course will also be different.

"Software engineers" for Tolkien? Five hundred years ago, printed books were just getting their start. Another five hundred years in the future and there will likely be no software engineers. Very few people in the year 1500 could have predicted the computer and the internet, and I think we also can not predict the shape of things over such a long span of time.

I am not the only one who feels this way. I recently attended a session which involved grad and undergrad students and one scholar from a nearby univerisity who had publshed several books investigating the medieval sources and connections of the Legendarium. There was a great deal of discussion on the earlier tradition of Arthurian literature, and whether Middle-earth could eventually evolve down a similar path, given modern modes of dissemination of stories. Like the present forum, the participants couldn't totally agree but there was a serious and respectful hearing given to the views on both sides.

Regarding the nature of this site, there is no fanfiction here. There is a separate older BD site which was used for fanfiction. It lies virtually dormant. Less than five pieces have been added there in the past year. There are RPGs on the main site. The RPG sections used to be quite active but for a variety of reasons (Werewolf games, mods who've pulled back a bit, fewer new posters) it is quieter of late. A few stories plod quietly forward. If you count up recent posts, most of the activity lies in Books (and Mirth). This is a Books site in origin and at its heart. I do not see that changing, nor do I want it to change.

I think that if there is a general "sagadarium", that JRRT created, it's the genre of modern fantasy. It's out there. You should try it. Writing it, I mean. It's tough, Ill warn you. You can spend years and years studying, perfecting, honing your mind to become an author of fiction or fantasy. Or, you can spend years and years on the internet being a JRRT monkey. woo hooo grab the twinkies....

There were authors writing fantasy like Morris and MacDonald long before Tolkien. However, he certainly sparked more creativity in the field. And most contemporary fantasy writers owe an enormous debt to Tolkien. Fantasy is not one thing -- there are so many types and forms that it is difficult to generalize, and this would take a very different thread. My only problem is your last sentence. You can't assume anyone who takes the opposite side in this argument is a "JRRT monkey". (Ouch, that hurts!) Just for the record, I have never written a fanfiction in my life, and I am no fantasy writer. I've spent plenty of time with RPGs but those are a different creature, and it is all for fun. However, I do have "serious stuff" in print in history and library science so I am hoping that disqualifies me from the heinous sin of being a "JRRT monkey".

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Child of the 7th Age

Regarding the nature of this site, there is no fanfiction here. There is a separate older BD site which was used for fanfiction. It lies virtually dormant. Less than five pieces have been added there in the past year. There are RPGs on the main site. The RPG sections used to be quite active but for a variety of reasons (Werewolf games, mods who've pulled back a bit, fewer new posters) it is quieter of late. A few stories plod quietly forward. If you count up recent posts, most of the activity lies in Books (and Mirth). This is a Books site in origin and at its heart. I do not see that changing, nor do I want it to change.

CotSA,
Do you have a link to the BD fan-fic site? I wouldn't mind reading some offerings and perhaps adding some of my own. As far as the RPG here, it is quite good, but I am more interested in novelized RP than the strict adherence to RPG'ing norms (that and the fact I have been doing novel-based RP'ing for the last eight or so years).

P.S. Never mind, I overcame my weekend lethargy and found the fan-fic forum by the sweat of my own brow (an epic journey in itself!). Now if I could only use mind control to have the beer bottle leave the fridge and float over to me on its own accord.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by davem

Elves do not 'snort'

But Elvish horses do...

Originally Posted by Flight to the Ford

He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted.

[Bêthberry]

Drigel, I must apologize for anouncing that deletion of your post. You were/are of course absolutely free to delete as you choose. Most members have, I suspect, deleted posts and I hardly think we are required to give reasons, despite what that little blank box says. What prompted me to comment upon it was the timing. Literally, I read it, hit the reply button, and the reply screen came up blank. I still think it is extraordinary timing.

No doubt with all Tolkien's talk of pipeweed, you folks have entirely the wrong opinion about "snorting." The verb derives from Middle English and only later--going by the OED--do the slang uses of the word appear. It has a completely legitimate use to suggest human contempt or indignation. I recall that (and of course my memory at the end of long, hot day battling the elements in the garden is as liable to tricks as anyone's) the OED records uses by Dickens and Walter Scott to describe characters' reactions of scorn or ridicule to a statement, so the word quite legitimately is not limited to animal breathing noises only .

Besides, my quick perusal of the third part of Mithadan's story, shows that it is Gandalf who is described as snorting, in indigation to being called "father."

Originally Posted by Mithadan

Ælfwine sat with Olórin and drained yet another cup. "Fine ale," he said. "And a fine night also! Your arrival was timely, father."

Olórin sipped carefully at his cup taking care not to wet his beard. "Father?" he snorted. "You may call me Gandalf. And yes the beer is good, but I have had better. But that was long ago.

I do believe this context is entirely in keeping with that meaning of indignation, especially for a Gandalf the Grey and his wit. I could, of course, have missed the line of 'Pengolodh snorted'--it could even be in one of the stories I haven't read, as I am not generally a reader of fanfiction and have never written any, althhough I have participated in RPGs--but even if I had, as I recall, there are some elves in Tolkien who do feel indignation, great indignation, particularly because of their own sense of their self-dignity, and who would, I suspect, again because of that lack of distance and self-deprecation, lack the wit of a Gandalf. I suppose it all comes down to context and how forgiving a reader is. After all, I seem to recall there are some historical whoopers in LotR like umbrellas.

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

No doubt with all Tolkien's talk of pipeweed, you folks have entirely the wrong opinion about "snorting." The verb derives from Middle English and only later--going by the OED--do the slang uses of the word appear. It has a completely legitimate use to suggest human contempt or indignation.

v. snort·ed, snort·ing, snorts
v.intr.
1.
a. To breathe noisily and forcefully through the nostrils.
b. To make a sound resembling noisy exhalation: "The wind snorted across the Kansas plains" Gail Sheehy.
2. To make an abrupt noise expressive of scorn, ridicule, or contempt.

I can fully see a 1st Age Elf the likes of the haughty Caranthir or Curufin snorting. Eol was said to have snorted on any number of occassions.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

. . . all of which only goes to show that no one should be too hasty in declaring himself or herself an infallible judge of Tolkien's style. Though for what it's worth (which is probably not much), I do agree that 'Pengolodh snorted' is unsuitable.

Now you may go back to endlessly debating literary pseudo-questions.

Yes, sorry - I was due to rush off for a bus. However. 'Lunch' is a middle-class term. Most Hobbits are not middle class. Actually, out of all the quotes you give 'lunch' is a term used by the narrator - apart from the single use by Pippin. I still say that the average Hobbit would not use the term, & would prefer 'dinner' - unless they were 'putting on airs'.

However, I shall be more careful with my examples in future.

[Raynor]

So does Merry

Originally Posted by Flotsam and Jetsam, TTT

- No, I don't think so, Merry laughed. But that is another story, which can wait until after lunch.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

So does Merry

Yes, another upper middle-class Hobbit, which puts him into a minority. And I refer you to the answer I gave earlier, 'cos I've lost interest in this point now - it was a throwaway point, generally correct, in that most hobbits are not middle-class & would not use a middle-class term like 'lunch' but would say 'dinner'. The point is that a writer of M-e fiction has to be aware of the subtleties of class distinction etc, & too many writers are not.

Middle-class Hobbits say 'lunch' & middle-class Hobbits are in the minority in the Shire. They are the exception. Hence, its true to say that Hobbits do not say 'lunch' - just as its true to say that Hobbits have nothing to do with Elves. Those Hobbits who do have anything to do with Elves are a tiny minority. LotR focusses on a tiny minority of unusual Hobbits. Hobbits don't wear footwear - (except for the minority who wear boots).

The habit of building farm-houses and barns was said to have begun among the inhabitants of the Marish down by the Brandywine. The Hobbits of that quarter, the Eastfarthing, were rather large and heavy-legged, and they wore dwarf-boots in muddy weather.

Geddit?

[Morthoron]

Originally Posted by davem

Yes, another upper middle-class Hobbit, which puts him into a minority. And I refer you to the answer I gave earlier, 'cos I've lost interest in this point now - it was a throwaway point, generally correct, in that most hobbits are not middle-class & would not use a middle-class term like 'lunch' but would say 'dinner'. The point is that a writer of M-e fiction has to be aware of the subtleties of class distinction etc, & too many writers are not.

Middle-class Hobbits say 'lunch' & middle-class Hobbits are in the minority in the Shire. They are the exception. Hence, its true to say that Hobbits do not say 'lunch' - just as its true to say that Hobbits have nothing to do with Elves. Those Hobbits who do have anything to do with Elves are a tiny minority. LotR focusses on a tiny minority of unusual Hobbits. Hobbits don't wear footwear - (except for the minority who wear boots).


Geddit?

No, I don't 'get it'. The term 'lunch' is a casual term, short for 'luncheon' (derived from the Middle English 'nuncheon'); in other words a noontime meal. I don't see any correlation to the word lunch being a Hobbitish upper-middle class term. 'Afternoon tea' would be more of a distinction among the squirearchy (and Pippin and Merry were indeed of that caste) than lunch, as even the poorer Hobbits insisted on at least three square meals (or four or five, if they could get it). You're out to lunch on this one, in a manner of speaking.

[Lalwendë]

The social consequences of mis-use of lunch/dinner and supper/dinner/tea are deep. Don't you believe otherwise. People have been hounded out of Yorkshire for over use of sinister words like 'lunch'. The only way you can get away with using the word lunch round these parts is to add -eon meat to the end of it. And even then someone will ask you if you're too stuck up for Spam.

The matter is only slightly less dangerous than all the pitfalls to be had when using napkins (I avoid this by wiping me gob on me sleeve).

[davem]

Originally Posted by Morthoron

No, I don't 'get it'. The term 'lunch' is a casual term, short for 'luncheon' (derived from the Middle English 'nuncheon'); in other words a noontime meal. I don't see any correlation to the word lunch being a Hobbitish upper-middle class term..

Yes, very good point, perceptive, insightful & well worth making - I think you'll find I made it myself in the post that started this tangent off:

Now, lunch is wrong. 'Luncheon' is pushing it. 'Nuncheon' might work for a midday meal, but Hobbits would have Dinner at mid-day. Breakfast, dinner, tea, supper.

However, you're missing the point. Hobbits are primarily working class English folk. Working class English folk do not have 'lunch' - we have dinner. Clever arguments based on derivations of words are all very fine, but are rarely relevant when it comes to how people from various classes actually use language. I am a member of the English working class. I grew up among the English working class, & my whole family without exception were of the English working class, & I can tell you that at mid-day the English working class, certainly up to very recent years, have 'dinner' at mid-day, not 'lunch'. In fact, in Yorkshire we have our 'snap' at dinner time - snap being food & providing the term 'knapsack' which was originally 'snapsack', or food sack.

And, if you can tell me how this whole digression is relevant to the thread I'll be happy to continue it. If not, I'm happy to leave it here.