Results from the Poll re: the name ' Laegolas' in the Fall of Gondolin - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Findegil · 06-15-2007, 01:55 AM

You make a realy good point, Galin.

I have to confess that the passages in Unfinished Tales dominated my view in which the reasons for Oropher leaving Lindon were described: He did not want to live under the domination of the Noldor. If I remember correctly Lindon was more or less split in two halfes, the south dominated by Sindar and the north dominated by Noldor. But all was contorlled by Gil-galad the last High King of the Noldor. Thus I assumed that Oropher would have gone as soon as Gil-Galad established his kingdom in Lindon. But from what you have shown this is doubtfull.

Thus I have to agree that we must assume that Thranduil and, if he was already in being, Legols lived for some time (510 FA to 700 SA) in South Lindon.
In this 780 years the country of Lindon was about 700 year a seaside country. It is likly from the map in The Lord of the Rings that in all Lindon seagulls could be heared. Even if I could argue that before the Downfall of Númenor Lindon might have been much wider, this would not help since the Gulf of Luhn was there from the start and would suffice for gulls coming over all Lindon.

Now the only explaination I could offer is a bit fare fetched:
In the passages of HOME 12 SA 700 we get the impression that it was Thranduil who established the Relam in Mirkwood. But from UT we know that it realy was his father Oropher. Assuming that the annals of that time were later compendiums of mixed sources it could be that the information lying behind that § are:
- In SA 700 some Telerin Elves left Lindon, one of them was Thranduil.
- Later it was know that they were Lords of relams in the dale of Anduin. Thranduil in the North of Mirkwood and Celeborn in Lorien.

From this point of view we could assume that Oropher left Lindon when Gil-galad etsablished his Kingdom and went east to south mirkwood. He is clearly depicted to be an Sindarin loath of the Noldor and it would be fitting for such a one to leave Lindon so early.
In SA 700 Amdír the father of Amroth left Lindon and established Lorien. With him went Thranduil to join again his father.

Since Gil-galad established Lindon in SA 1 and we must assume that Beleriand did not sink all of a sudden, it could be that at this early times no Seagulls could be heard in Lindon (or at least in part of it lets say the feet of the Ered Lindon). So we could think that Legolas this time follwoed his grandfather rather then staying with his father how is reported to leave in SA 700.

Please keep in mind that I am not saying that is how it was, I just say it could have been so. And that is sufficient for me not to change the name. The slight spelling update to Laegolas is for me already hard at the boundery, but still acceptable.

Respectfully
Findegil

Man-of-the-Wold · 07-02-2007, 12:12 AM

Aiwendil makes persuasive points. Nevertheless, it makes sense to nolderize and modify the earlier personage in order to avoid confusion or debates about reincarnations ala Glorfindel. I think we all know that JRRT simply reused a name he liked and had never worked out all of the etymology and progressions respective to his later refinements of Telerian and other tongues and naming customs.

Also, since the Sindar were prevalent if not predominant among Turgon's people, could not the earlier Legolas be attributed to a Sindarin house, and then one might say that the Gray-elves of Middle-Earth were not so strict about the reoccurrence of names.

As for Legolas of Mirkwood, we know nothing positive about his maternal lineage or when he was born. It seems fair to say he was chosen for the Fellowship because he was representative of Elves as they still existed and to some degree flourished in Middle-Earth in the Third Age; even though technically an Eldar, in LoTR his Eldarin nature is at best downplayed. So, I've always assumed that he also would have had Laiquendi or Nandorin ancestors as well, though not necessarily Avari. Also, while he was unimaginably ancient by our reckoning, he was not among those that had seen the happenings of previous ages. So, again, I have assumed that at the oldest he belongs to the generation of Elrond's children, or perhaps even later, such that he might be only a mere thousand or so years old at the time of Fellowship, where he remarks on how even in his time he had travelled very little, especially not anywhere near the extent of Aragorn in his then roughly 90 years.

Findegil · 07-03-2007, 05:02 AM

In the end, all reasoning falls short. What we have as jet is:

- A vote from old times for changing "{Legolas}[Laegolas]"
- As far as I see two newer participants in the discussion that would vote for "Legolas", but not any of the old voters has shown even the smallest sign that he would take his vote back based on any argument brought forth

That means at least for the time being that we have to keep "{Legolas}[Laegols]".

But for the sack of the discussion:
Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

As for Legolas of Mirkwood, we know nothing positive about his maternal lineage or when he was born. It seems fair to say he was chosen for the Fellowship because he was representative of Elves as they still existed and to some degree flourished in Middle-Earth in the Third Age; even though technically an Eldar, in LoTR his Eldarin nature is at best downplayed.

I agree on this point, but he had not dinieable Sindarin roots by his father and Grandfather. Thus your further conclusion is not compelling to me. Specially since Oropher clearly down played his own being as Sindar as well.

Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

Also, while he was unimaginably ancient by our reckoning, he was not among those that had seen the happenings of previous ages.

This assumption is exactly the crux we have to deal with. Why? What made you feel he was a young Elf, as they count years? I find it very difficult to deal with this typ of overall impresion that people often bring forth in support of this argument. We have to keep in mind that we are dealing with a immortal race. Open mindness and continous interest in the wonders of the wide world might be considered as the special features that brought Legoals of Mircwood into the Fellowship of the Ring.

As jet I have not heard any argument that would give a no go for the possibility I showed of Legolas of Gondolin being the same person as Legolas of Mircwood. That alone is an interesting fact, if I consider that more than one of the old voters made it cristally clear that they dinied even the slightest possibilty of this. Were are now the persuasive line of argumentaion on which they base their sure assumption?

Respectfully
Findegil

Galin · 07-03-2007, 06:04 AM

Just to explain, I didn't vote on any form of the name thinking that this was voted on long ago in any case.

As for naming customs I have written a 'summation' based on passages from HME X and HME XII, which includes a bit on the repetition of names among Elves. Most here probably know the details, but I don't think the following example has been raised in the thread (the text about the name Glorfindel has been raised of course) so, just for possible interest...

It concerns the valour of an Elf with a Quenya name: Tolkien states that Aracáno never changed his name to Sindarin form (especially when slain so early in the history of the Exiles) but the name Argon (the Sindarin form): '... was often given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour.' The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-earth

Man-of-the-Wold · 07-05-2007, 11:56 PM

In response to Findegil, Legolas' Sindarin ancestry is "undeniable" and would still be true even his mother were of the Nandor, like presumably Nimrodel.

Nevertheless, until one gets to the appendices of LotR, Legolas comes across as very much the wood elf, chosen as the representative of the Elfin race, and not as one of the great and wise to possibly bring special abilities to aid the ringbearer, as Elrond considers in the context of possibly selecting one from among his own household.

I cannot tell what of my other conclusions is unaccepted.

Judgment and impression is all one has sometimes. Facts and hard evidence are hard to come by.

But the fact that Legolas talks about hardly ever having ventured beyond Mirkwood, and that his father (though a elven lord) is not even a member of the White Council or necessarily accounted among the Wise at the time of the Necromancer's expulsion from Dol Guldor might suggest that Legolas was not present during the Goblin Wars. If he had been around for the Last Alliance, it seems strange that such great lore and experience does not arise in the narrative of the LotR.

Yes, one must keep in mind that other possibilities exist when conclusons are based on supposition and circumstantial or partial evidence, but still the perponderance of evidence and intuition suggest that the Legolas of the published and finished work is a character of the Third Age, which by the time of the WotR had had a long and rich history, already.

But if voting, I'd vote for a variant name for the personage of Gondolin.

Findegil · 07-08-2007, 03:43 AM

Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

Nevertheless, until one gets to the appendices of LotR, Legolas comes across as very much the wood elf, chosen as the representative of the Elfin race, and not as one of the great and wise to possibly bring special abilities to aid the ringbearer, as Elrond considers in the context of possibly selecting one from among his own household.

Agreed completly. But to have a long and complicate history behind makes him in my view an even better representative of the Elven-race in general. We should not make the mistake to think that being in Gondolin would make Legolas at once one of the very improtant Wise elfes of Middle-Earth. The role that Legolas of Gondolin playes in the Battle does not show him as one of the councilmembers of Turgon or one of the great heros of the Battle. He is just a kind of pathfinder in the dark, that does a good job in guiding the host of fugitives over the plian in the dark.

Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

I cannot tell what of my other conclusions is unaccepted.
Judgment and impression is all one has sometimes. Facts and hard evidence are hard to come by.

Non of your conclusions are unacceptable, but also no of them is forcing. To make up your mind about Legolas is one of the tasks that a reader has to undertake, and the results are often quiet diffrent and should be so. Our work is not meant and should not end any such Discussion as this if it is not neccesary for the forming of the text we are willing to produce. If all evidence allows for more than on interpretation of a charachter that is fine and should be so in our version of The translation from the Elvish as well.

Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

But the fact that Legolas talks about hardly ever having ventured beyond Mirkwood, and that his father (though a elven lord) is not even a member of the White Council or necessarily accounted among the Wise at the time of the Necromancer's expulsion from Dol Guldor might suggest that Legolas was not present during the Goblin Wars. If he had been around for the Last Alliance, it seems strange that such great lore and experience does not arise in the narrative of the LotR.

I agree that Legolas was porbably not in the war of the last Alliance, but their could very good reason for that: After all his father and Grandfather went to that daedly war. Some one has to be left behind as a steward to guard the realm and a hier of the throne is a probable choise for this. Especially if he knows as Legolas did for sure what so ever his former history has been, that the Elves were alowed to sail West and how and were this could be done.

It is true that Legolas does not come over as the very old and expirenced Elf all the time in LotR. But he as some other minor charachters in the book go through some development after wards. A very prominent excample of this is Celeborn. When the main body of the text was written he was clearly a Woodelven Lord who had never left his realm. His wife, one of the great of the noldor had come to him and he had kissed here to stay. In the Appendix he is already changed to one of the Sindarin rulers of Woodelven relams and a relativ of King Elwe Thingol. Later on Tolkien considered and even more drastical change to a Telerin Prince from Valinor.
Or take Galdor of the Havens, he is a meassenger of Círdan in the text and nothing more is said about him. Later on we hear in Tolkiens late writing that he was one and the same Galdor of the Tree, one of the greatest heros of the Fall of Gondolin.

Posted by Man-of-the-Wold:

Quote:

Nevertheless, it makes sense to nolderize and modify the earlier personage in order to avoid confusion or debates about reincarnations ala Glorfindel.

Is it our aime to ripe readers of our text of this confusion and debates that we so much enjoy? I don't think so! If our sources by our best judgement hold still the potential for such confusion and debate it is our task to preserve it. Christopher Tolkien had set in his work all this things straight. But that lead to a thiner book and to the wish of a 'Rivised Silmarillion'.

I see this a point were in the end we have to say, 'we do not know for sure'. And in such a case our text should not strenghten one side or the other.

Therefore I would vote for keping Legolas as it is, if the voting would be reoppend. But as I said before the change {Legolas}[Laegols] is acceptable for me, even so it is on the boundary.

Respectfully
Findegil

Legolas1 · 08-11-2008, 09:17 AM

I say keep legolas because hes my hero and its my screen name!

07-02-2007, 12:12 AM	#2
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	Aiwendil makes persuasive points. Nevertheless, it makes sense to nolderize and modify the earlier personage in order to avoid confusion or debates about reincarnations ala Glorfindel. I think we all know that JRRT simply reused a name he liked and had never worked out all of the etymology and progressions respective to his later refinements of Telerian and other tongues and naming customs. Also, since the Sindar were prevalent if not predominant among Turgon's people, could not the earlier Legolas be attributed to a Sindarin house, and then one might say that the Gray-elves of Middle-Earth were not so strict about the reoccurrence of names. As for Legolas of Mirkwood, we know nothing positive about his maternal lineage or when he was born. It seems fair to say he was chosen for the Fellowship because he was representative of Elves as they still existed and to some degree flourished in Middle-Earth in the Third Age; even though technically an Eldar, in LoTR his Eldarin nature is at best downplayed. So, I've always assumed that he also would have had Laiquendi or Nandorin ancestors as well, though not necessarily Avari. Also, while he was unimaginably ancient by our reckoning, he was not among those that had seen the happenings of previous ages. So, again, I have assumed that at the oldest he belongs to the generation of Elrond's children, or perhaps even later, such that he might be only a mere thousand or so years old at the time of Fellowship, where he remarks on how even in his time he had travelled very little, especially not anywhere near the extent of Aragorn in his then roughly 90 years. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

07-05-2007, 11:56 PM	#5
Man-of-the-Wold Wight Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: With Tux, dread poodle of Pinnath Galin Posts: 239	In response to Findegil, Legolas' Sindarin ancestry is "undeniable" and would still be true even his mother were of the Nandor, like presumably Nimrodel. Nevertheless, until one gets to the appendices of LotR, Legolas comes across as very much the wood elf, chosen as the representative of the Elfin race, and not as one of the great and wise to possibly bring special abilities to aid the ringbearer, as Elrond considers in the context of possibly selecting one from among his own household. I cannot tell what of my other conclusions is unaccepted. Judgment and impression is all one has sometimes. Facts and hard evidence are hard to come by. But the fact that Legolas talks about hardly ever having ventured beyond Mirkwood, and that his father (though a elven lord) is not even a member of the White Council or necessarily accounted among the Wise at the time of the Necromancer's expulsion from Dol Guldor might suggest that Legolas was not present during the Goblin Wars. If he had been around for the Last Alliance, it seems strange that such great lore and experience does not arise in the narrative of the LotR. Yes, one must keep in mind that other possibilities exist when conclusons are based on supposition and circumstantial or partial evidence, but still the perponderance of evidence and intuition suggest that the Legolas of the published and finished work is a character of the Third Age, which by the time of the WotR had had a long and rich history, already. But if voting, I'd vote for a variant name for the personage of Gondolin. __________________ The hoes unrecked in the fields were flung, __ and fallen ladders in the long grass lay __ of the lush orchards; every tree there turned __ its tangled head and eyed them secretly, __ and the ears listened of the nodding grasses; __ though noontide glowed on land and leaf, __ their limbs were chilled.

08-11-2008, 09:17 AM	#7
Legolas1 Pile O'Bones Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Here now!!!! Posts: 11	I say keep legolas because hes my hero and its my screen name! __________________ This does not look good. We will not survive the night.

06-15-2007, 01:55 AM	#1
Findegil King's Writer Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 1,721	You make a realy good point, Galin. I have to confess that the passages in Unfinished Tales dominated my view in which the reasons for Oropher leaving Lindon were described: He did not want to live under the domination of the Noldor. If I remember correctly Lindon was more or less split in two halfes, the south dominated by Sindar and the north dominated by Noldor. But all was contorlled by Gil-galad the last High King of the Noldor. Thus I assumed that Oropher would have gone as soon as Gil-Galad established his kingdom in Lindon. But from what you have shown this is doubtfull. Thus I have to agree that we must assume that Thranduil and, if he was already in being, Legols lived for some time (510 FA to 700 SA) in South Lindon. In this 780 years the country of Lindon was about 700 year a seaside country. It is likly from the map in The Lord of the Rings that in all Lindon seagulls could be heared. Even if I could argue that before the Downfall of Númenor Lindon might have been much wider, this would not help since the Gulf of Luhn was there from the start and would suffice for gulls coming over all Lindon. Now the only explaination I could offer is a bit fare fetched: In the passages of HOME 12 SA 700 we get the impression that it was Thranduil who established the Relam in Mirkwood. But from UT we know that it realy was his father Oropher. Assuming that the annals of that time were later compendiums of mixed sources it could be that the information lying behind that § are: - In SA 700 some Telerin Elves left Lindon, one of them was Thranduil. - Later it was know that they were Lords of relams in the dale of Anduin. Thranduil in the North of Mirkwood and Celeborn in Lorien. From this point of view we could assume that Oropher left Lindon when Gil-galad etsablished his Kingdom and went east to south mirkwood. He is clearly depicted to be an Sindarin loath of the Noldor and it would be fitting for such a one to leave Lindon so early. In SA 700 Amdír the father of Amroth left Lindon and established Lorien. With him went Thranduil to join again his father. Since Gil-galad established Lindon in SA 1 and we must assume that Beleriand did not sink all of a sudden, it could be that at this early times no Seagulls could be heard in Lindon (or at least in part of it lets say the feet of the Ered Lindon). So we could think that Legolas this time follwoed his grandfather rather then staying with his father how is reported to leave in SA 700. Please keep in mind that I am not saying that is how it was, I just say it could have been so. And that is sufficient for me not to change the name. The slight spelling update to Laegolas is for me already hard at the boundery, but still acceptable. Respectfully Findegil

07-03-2007, 06:04 AM	#4
Galin Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 1,036	Just to explain, I didn't vote on any form of the name thinking that this was voted on long ago in any case. As for naming customs I have written a 'summation' based on passages from HME X and HME XII, which includes a bit on the repetition of names among Elves. Most here probably know the details, but I don't think the following example has been raised in the thread (the text about the name Glorfindel has been raised of course) so, just for possible interest... It concerns the valour of an Elf with a Quenya name: Tolkien states that Aracáno never changed his name to Sindarin form (especially when slain so early in the history of the Exiles) but the name Argon (the Sindarin form): '... was often given as a name by Noldor and Sindar in memory of his valour.' The Shibboleth of Feanor, The Peoples of Middle-earth