Sauron Greater than Morgoth...

[The 1,000 Reader]

Sauron was humiliatingly defeated at the Isle of Werewolves, and lost every fight he was in, so no, he is certainly not greater than Morgoth. Morgoth's plan, while crude, did actually work. If it were not for the Host of the Valar, Beleriand would have been his. Sauron, on the other hand, was repeatedly thwarted by the mortal beings (and lesser elves) of Arda. His corruption of Numemor wasn't really a victory, seeing as how it had already become quite corrupt, and it was still a major loss for him in the end. His ultimate defeat was not one on the battlefield, but by Gollum falling to his death by accident. If anything, this seems symbolic of him being undeserving of a grand end.

All in all, Morgoth ruled over balrogs and dragons, was the first to corrupt men, defeated Fingolfin in combat, and was defeated by the host of Valinor. On the matter of looking cool, none of Morgoth's defeats were truly shameful, while we all know of Sauron's defeat at the Isle of Werewolves. In the end, Morgoth was the better Dark Lord, the more persistent enemy (Morgoth's Ring), and would come again for the end of the world. Sauron was like a carbon copy of Morgoth once you delve into the character, with only a few distinctions.

[The Might]

Still, Sauron is more evil:

"In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible."

Now that doesn't make him greater, definitely not as far as the initial power they had is concerned, but still, an interesting idea that Sauron is the more evil one.

[Morwen]

In what context does Tolkien make this statement? Does "in my story" refer to the Legedarium as a whole or is he referring to LotR specifically?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Morwen

In what context does Tolkien make this statement? Does "in my story" refer to the Legedarium as a whole or is he referring to LotR specifically?

A fuller version of the paragraph (emphasis added):

Originally Posted by Letter #183

In my story I do not deal in Absolute Evil. I do not think there is such a thing, since that is Zero. I do not think that at any rate any 'rational being' is wholly evil. Satan fell. In my myth Morgoth fell before Creation of the physical world. In my story Sauron represents as near an approach to the wholly evil will as is possible. He had gone the way of all tyrants: beginning well, at least on the level that while desiring to order all things according to his own wisdom he still at first considered the (economic) well-being of other inhabitants of the Earth.

This part of some notes written by Tolkien, unsent to anyone, in regards to a positive review by W.H. Auden of the Return of the King. Taking into consideration that Sauron is described in LotR/Silmarillion/HoME as a servant/emissary/follower of Morgoth and, also, that it would seem that "story" would refer to LotR only, not the whole Legendarium, I believe that this statement about Sauron is LotR-level only.

[The Might]

Interesting...until now I kept thinking Sauron is supposed to be more evil, but Raynor brings a good argument against this.
I also wasn't sure about the meaning of the word "story" was in this context.

[Belegorn]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Sauron was humiliatingly defeated at the Isle of Werewolves, and lost every fight he was in, so no, he is certainly not greater than Morgoth.

He did not lose every fight he was in. When he was defeated at the end of the 2nd Age, it was really a draw between himself and Gil-galad/Elendil. Speaking of the Isle do you recall this encounter? "Felagund strove with Sauron in songs of power, and the power of the King was very great; but Sauron had the mastery, as is told in the Lay of Leithian:" [Sil, p. 206]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Sauron, on the other hand, was repeatedly thwarted by the mortal beings (and lesser elves) of Arda.

I'm not so sure about that. Concerning the so-called "lesser Elves" as you call them Gil-galad was the King of the Noldor in ME. The Last Alliance is described as follows, "the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has been since seen in Middle-Earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim." [Sil, p. 364] Sauron was bested by Huan and Luthien, the same Luthien who walked up to Melkor's throne with Beren and stole a Silmaril.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

none of Morgoth's defeats were truly shameful

Tulkas shamed him. "Melkor took refuge in the uttermost pit. Then Tulkas stood forth as champion of the Valar and wrestled with him, and cast him upon his face; and he was bound with the chain of Angainor" [Sil, p. 52] Now among the Valar "Nine were of chief power and reverence" [Sil, p. 23] and Tulkas is NOT considered among them.

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

Sauron was like a carbon copy of Morgoth

I can agree to this for the most part. Sauron was of Aule's party and Melkor was most like Aule. I do think Sauron was his own guy however. He appeared to be into wolves, came up with a cool way to control the peoples of ME with the Rings of Power. It would have been interesting to see what kind of fell creatures the Elves would become who became enslaved to the Rings.

[EluThingol]

Originally Posted by Belegorn

I can agree to this for the most part. Sauron was of Aule's party and Melkor was most like Aule. I do think Sauron was his own guy however. He appeared to be into wolves, came up with a cool way to control the peoples of ME with the Rings of Power. It would have been interesting to see what kind of fell creatures the Elves would become who became enslaved to the Rings.

Sauron was definately his own guy.

When Morgoth realized he couldn't actually RULE everyone, and make his own will the will of others, and shape the entire world in his own image, he would have had it all destroyed. And I think his goal was to destroy all of Arda, not just middle earth.

Sauron on the other hand, dreamed of some kind of twisted order to things. He still wanted to be a great Lord, and because he had played the game so well against the Valar in the past, and Morgoth was gone, he would be pretty much untouchable as the Lord of Middle Earth.

Morgoth: Wanted to destroy Arda
Sauron: Wanted to be Lord of Middle Earth

I definately dont agree that Sauron's defeats were humiliating.... he lost a one on one battle with Huan, was probably one of the most powerful physical entities of the Valar under Orome and Tulkas. Otherwise he used better guile and hid himself and his plans way better than Morgoth. He singlehandedly poisoned Numenor so thoroughly that Eru decided it to erase it from the earth. Fingolfin pretty much embarassed Morgoth in single combat... like a child fighting a grown man and leaving him with a broken nose. But Sauron was crushing men and elves with ease until he lost his ring, and even after that defeat he returned.


Morgoth was certainly the greatest malevolent force in Ea, and I would actually credit Ungoliant with being 2nd in terms of destructiveness - so much so that she destroyed herself before doing any more damage to anything else.

Sauron though, was the most consistent, the trickiest, and he adapted himself every age to suit himself best without suffering too many consequences while Morgoth suffered the wrath of the Valar on a few occasions.