Did JRRT encourage new ME stories?

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

The gaps in the story are there because Tolkien never invented anything to fill them.

While this is valid for issues like Bombadil & co, I doubt we can safely generalise this for all the gaps. From what can be seen from CT's comments in various places, in many cases Tolkien simply forgot to close gaps.

Look. its like an American fan wishing that Tolkien had visited the US in the 50's to promote LotR. The fan decides that in order to satisfy his desire he will invent a promotional tour by Tolkien, including meetings with prominent American fantasy & Science Fiction writers, & attempt to get this included in a reprint of Carpenter's biography - why not, if its a good story, well written, & serves to entertain other Tolkien fans?

However, can we equate writing fiction with presenting false events (the tour) as being real?

Originally Posted by davem

Should we hire someone competent to finish it off? Read the accompanying poem. If we got someone to finish off the sculpture, what, exactly would we have gained, in comparison to what we would lose?

Its the very fact that the Legendarium is incomplete that adds to the poignancy, the feeling of what might have been, if only...

The "Legendarium written by Tolkien" will remain incomplete, no matter how many books, written by others, appear to complete it; it is a truism. Your analogy does not hold because if we attach arms to Venus, it will most likely destroy its unicity; same with the Michelangelo's work. However, the unicity of the Legendarium will remain, no matter what other books of fiction appear; it cannot be affected.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

While this is valid for issues like Bombadil & co, I doubt we can safely generalise this for all the gaps. From what can be seen from CT's comments in various places, in many cases Tolkien simply forgot to close gaps.

I was referring to the untold, or unfinished stories - like the fall of Gondolin & the War of Wrath, or Beren & Luthien.

However, can we equate writing fiction with presenting false events (the tour) as being real?

We can in this case, as the fiction, in a real sense, is the man.

The "Legendarium written by Tolkien" will remain incomplete, no matter how many books, written by others, appear to complete it; it is a truism. Your analogy does not hold because if we attach arms to Venus, it will most likely destroy its unicity; same with the Michelangelo's work. However, the unicity of the Legendarium will remain, no matter what other books of fiction appear; it cannot be affected.

Why the desire for other writers to tell new M-e stories then? The generally expressed reason is that people want to know more, to have the gaps in the Legendarium filled for them. They're using that letter to Waldman to support 'other hands' taking up the story & continuing it.

[Feanorsdoom]

Davem, I understand your belief in the importance of keeping Tolkien's work distinct from that which might be done in his name; no one here wants to see Disney's The Hobbit II. But Tolkien's world is very much like the historical Egypt before modern archaeology. There are minds every bit as creative and subtle as the Master's, however you may idolize him, and some of those minds will not be content to let the beauty of Middle-earth languish in dusty volumes. Arda began as a thought in one man's head and that man is gone, but Arda is not. The Silmarils are still waiting to be found, and some day, they will be.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Davem, I understand your belief in the importance of keeping Tolkien's work distinct from that which might be done in his name; no one here wants to see Disney's The Hobbit II. But Tolkien's world is very much like the historical Egypt before modern archaeology. There are minds every bit as creative and subtle as the Master's, however you may idolize him, and some of those minds will not be content to let the beauty of Middle-earth languish in dusty volumes. Arda began as a thought in one man's head and that man is gone, but Arda is not. The Silmarils are still waiting to be found, and some day, they will be.

No they won't. Never. Some hack may make up a story about how they were found. And some hack may make up a story about how Turin & Nienor didn't really die, that it was all a trick to escape Morgoth's curse. Any mind as creative as Tolkien's will do its own thing, not flog stolen goods. Arda is Tolkien & Tolkien is gone. All the rest is lies & fakery. Sorry, I know you want it to be true that there is some genius waiting in the wings to take over, but reality isn't like that. The universe throws up geniuses every now & then. They blaze & pass.

This desire to have reams of fake Tolkien to read when there are so many works by other artists out there baffles me.

There isn't any more genuine stuff. Anything else will be fake.

I can't fathom why this is so difficult to understand. I know you wish there was more stuff. I understand the regret. But wanting more doesn't work like a magic spell to make more appear. Life isn't like that.

That's actually what LotR is saying - things come to an end. They stop, & there isn't any more. The Elves have gone. Sorry, but that's life.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

Davem, I understand your belief in the importance of keeping Tolkien's work distinct from that which might be done in his name; no one here wants to see Disney's The Hobbit II. But Tolkien's world is very much like the historical Egypt before modern archaeology. There are minds every bit as creative and subtle as the Master's, however you may idolize him, and some of those minds will not be content to let the beauty of Middle-earth languish in dusty volumes. Arda began as a thought in one man's head and that man is gone, but Arda is not. The Silmarils are still waiting to be found, and some day, they will be.

Well those minds must be content to let their own visions of Middle-earth either exist in their own heads, find another art form (like painting, music, crafts etc) or face the fact that their writing will remain a fan pursuit. The Estate keeps a tight ship on written work and rightly so - I've said it many times before and I will continue to say it, that Tolkien's work will not and must not end up cheapened and diluted like the Universe of Star Wars and many others.

Sorry to say but if someone really does have the same genius as that possessed by Tolkien then they will also have the genius to create their own visions of other worlds. There are geniuses out there today and that's what they are doing right now. Gaiman for one. Pullman for another. That's part of the inherent quality of genius - you do not ape others, you go and create something of your own which astounds and confounds.

[The 1,000 Reader]

As I mentioned earlier, Tolkien's works and fanfiction should never mix. The only person who has the right to write about Middle-Earth is Professor Tolkien, and he is dead to boot. As Davem said, Middle-Earth went with Tolkien. While a mythology of sorts, Tolkien's works are ultimately a work of fantasy and Tolkien's alone. On a lesser note, the few things I have seen that are attempted offshoots are written terribly. Tolkien's works are Tolkien's works, and were meant to be Tolkien's works, are Tolkien's works, and hopefully will remain Tolkien's works.

As for being inspired by Middle-Earth, you can, yet leave Middle-Earth be. Just acknowledge the fact that the story is finished and the gaps are simply things of no importance. Seriously, it's finished. Done.

[Lalwendë]

Spot on. There's nowt wrong with having some fun and playing RPGs and writing fan-fic etc (I've done it - am I gonna slate myself eh?), and if you write parody/satire you might see that in print because that is something new and different, but taking yourself too seriously and believing you can actually meet or even challenge the Authority of Tolkien (or CT) in serious writing to add to the canon is a little...precious?

[davem]

Just to go back to Feanorsdoom's point about the 'Silmarils being found one day'. I take it this is referring to the potential for some other writer to tell that story.

Yes, someone could indeed write that story - in fact I would be very surprised if someone hadn't already done so - there's so much fanfic around I suspect that every possible idea has been explored & written up by somebody.

However, what seems to be being suggested is an 'officially' sanctioned work by another author, published under the auspices pf the Tolkien Estate & that would stand on equal terms with LotR & TH, or at least with The '77 Sil & CoH. Now that I simply cannot see ever being accepted by most fans or students of Tolkien. It would be no more than published fanfic & be held in no higher authority than any other such work.

There can be (& probably will be shen copyright runs out - though I note that recent editions of Tolkien's work are copyright The Tolkien Trust, not JRR Tolkien) new M-e stories. But there will never be another writer who can say with perfect truth (as Tolkien did) that 'the Silmarils are in my heart'. The absolute best you could hope for would be a good fantasy novel (or more probably fantasy series). But it wouldn't be Tolkien. It would be a second hand vision. Even the style would either have to be fake Tolkien or the writer's own - in which case it would feel false.

To me this desire is more like the desire of someone who sees the Mona Lisa & becomes fascinated with the landscape background & wants another artist to paint other pictures showing more of the landscape to left & right. Apart from the fact that all you would end up with is a couple of landscape paintings with a vague connection to the original painting, the person wanting those paintings would have completely missed the point of the original....

Let's imagine a writer authorised to write a continuation - the first thing he or she is going to do is hit the solid brick wall of 'Myths Transformed' - does he or she ignore or incorporate those changes? Of course, that's just the first & most obvious example. The Legendarium is not a coherent, self consistent tale with a few gaps to fill, which any half decent writer can come along & fill in. It was a constantly evolving work, changing over Tolkien's long life, with far more internal conflicts & inconsistencies than many fans are willing to admit.

Sorry, you can analyse the writings, you can analyse the writer, but what you can't do is just write 'gap fillers' or continuations - anyone who thinks you can simply doesn't understand what Tolkien produced & the nature of teh materials he left.

[Feanorsdoom]

Davem, you have come closest to the truth in saying that no one could see M-e as JRRT did, and the fact that it was never a finished model to work from cements that; but 'filling in the gaps' or continuing the overall story in some sense are things that are being done, and will continue to be done, despite what you may wish. You say no one can internalize Tolkien's world like he did, and that's true, but it was never complete or adequately idealized in him, either. If you mean to say that no one could be as masterful as him without necessarily wanting to write outside of M-e, presumably for reasons of pride if not that genius can only be a purely individual nature, you may also be right, but I doubt it. Le Mort d'Arthur wasn't the first story about King Arthur, and no doubt won't be the last.

I'm not saying that the Tolkien family should bow to fan pressure and sanction a campaign of novel knockoffs like in the Star Trek universe(s) or AD&D, but fanfic is being written, and will be for the forseeable future. Somewhere in there might be writers of good quality, even great. To say that none can ever match the skills, vision, or dedication of JRRT himself is close to calling Tolkien divinely inspired and his works scripture. Before you key up another "never", I'd like to ask just how far we should go to keep people from publishing a new, non-Tolkien, Middle-earth novel. Should we just sue them for copyright infringement, or should we burn them for blasphemy?

JRRT was not a prophet, an apostle, or a messiah, and The Silmarillion is not the new, improved Bible. There will be authors his equal, and not all will share your idea that Middle-earth is sacrosanct to JRRT alone. Yes, his M-e is lost to us, except for the works he left behind; but if you are saying that no one's vision of M-e could ever be as beautiful, then I think you should question yourself as to how seriously you should be taking this line of thought. This isn't a cult; at least, I hope it's not becoming one.

Love for Tolkien's works can be expressed in many ways. Most of us can only read them, but many can't leave it at that. Surely, the human race isn't so impoverished that it can't come up with someone who both loves Tolkien's works and has the ability to add to them something worthwhile? Shouldn't we at least aknowledge the possibility, or should M-e be protected from outside ideas until it becomes a cult, then a new religion? That way leads to madness.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by davem

I was referring to the untold, or unfinished stories - like the fall of Gondolin & the War of Wrath, or Beren & Luthien.

My bad, I misread "invented" as "intended"; talk about writting after midnight. I would say the jury may still be out on that one, seeing that some say that a good/most part of Tolkien's writtings is not published yet.

Originally Posted by davem

We can in this case, as the fiction, in a real sense, is the man.

I would call this as true as saying that this tour did take place . Author and work are separable, esspecially if one gets to know the letters and other materials on Tolkien's life and personality, and if one takes into consideration that his work was continuously evolving.

As far as "keeping it real", I see no problem; as long as Tolkien's name does not appear as author of a new book, what's the biggie? It's all down to personal choice what standing we give to a book; some people exclude even works of Tolkien from canon, and frankly, as long as we give to Ceasar what is unto Ceasar, in public discussions [that is, we give relevant information about source, as it is good practice on Tolkien discussions], then anything goes. Not to mention that the Wheel of Time books are publicised in Romania as "tales of the fourth age, completing Tolkien's work".