Did JRRT encourage new ME stories? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

William Cloud Hicklin · 06-04-2007, 12:36 PM

Ay-men, Brother!!!

Quote:

No one can prevent anyone from writing or publishing new books based on Tolkien's (as far as I know, at least)

Oh yes they can...

Elmo · 06-04-2007, 01:02 PM

When does the copyright on Lord of the Rings run out? When it does, wouldn't that open the floodgates?

Sauron the White · 06-04-2007, 01:28 PM

davem ... the overwhelming weight of my post was in response to yours as a stereotpyed characterization of people who want more Middle-earth tales. I thought then, and still do now, that you set up these people as weak strawmen and then you dealt with them with derision and sarcasm. I thought that was unfair. You are obviously an extremely well informed Tolkien scholar who has very well thought out opinions. For my two cents, you stand on much more solid ground when you deal with the actual issue at hand rather than attempt to unfairly stereotype people with ideas different than the ones you hold.

davem · 06-04-2007, 03:25 PM

The whole problem is in the way people who want continuations of Tolkien's stories are looking at this. Its as if they see Middle-earth as equivalent to Ancient Egypt . A Historian writes a series of books on the history of Egypt, but leaves gaps in the narrative. Unfortunately he dies before he can complete his project, but some readers are so fascinated by the period that they demand other historians take up the baton & complete the story. And that's possible because Egypt has a history, & the truth about it can be discovered & made available.

Now, Middle-earth in not like that. The gaps in the story are there because Tolkien never invented anything to fill them. There is nothing to be discovered. The fact that Tolkien failed to fill the gaps, while at the same time focussing on other parts of the story to the extent that he re-wrote them over & over, tells us a great deal about the man who invented the world. To 'fill' those gaps is effectively to create a false impression of the creation.

Look. its like an American fan wishing that Tolkien had visited the US in the 50's to promote LotR. The fan decides that in order to satisfy his desire he will invent a promotional tour by Tolkien, including meetings with prominent American fantasy & Science Fiction writers, & attempt to get this included in a reprint of Carpenter's biography - why not, if its a good story, well written, & serves to entertain other Tolkien fans?

Well, because its not true. Tolkien never went to America in the 50's. Just as Tolkien never completed his Legendarium. But its incompleteness is part of its nature. To add new stories by new writers just to 'fill in the gaps' is equivalent to deciding to stick arms on the Venus de Milo. Of course you could get a decent sculptor to knock up a pair of arms & attach them in order to 'finish the thing off' - in fact, that at least could be justified in that the statue did have arms at one time.

But look at this, an unfinished work by Michelangelo http://www.ablemuse.com/premiere/bho...unfinished.htm

Should we hire someone competent to finish it off? Read the accompanying poem. If we got someone to finish off the sculpture, what, exactly would we have gained, in comparison to what we would lose?

Its the very fact that the Legendarium is incomplete that adds to the poignancy, the feeling of what might have been, if only...

Its a metaphor for life

Raynor · 06-04-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

The gaps in the story are there because Tolkien never invented anything to fill them.

While this is valid for issues like Bombadil & co, I doubt we can safely generalise this for all the gaps. From what can be seen from CT's comments in various places, in many cases Tolkien simply forgot to close gaps.

Quote:

Look. its like an American fan wishing that Tolkien had visited the US in the 50's to promote LotR. The fan decides that in order to satisfy his desire he will invent a promotional tour by Tolkien, including meetings with prominent American fantasy & Science Fiction writers, & attempt to get this included in a reprint of Carpenter's biography - why not, if its a good story, well written, & serves to entertain other Tolkien fans?

However, can we equate writing fiction with presenting false events (the tour) as being real?

Quote:

Originally Posted by davem

Should we hire someone competent to finish it off? Read the accompanying poem. If we got someone to finish off the sculpture, what, exactly would we have gained, in comparison to what we would lose?

Its the very fact that the Legendarium is incomplete that adds to the poignancy, the feeling of what might have been, if only...

The "Legendarium written by Tolkien" will remain incomplete, no matter how many books, written by others, appear to complete it; it is a truism. Your analogy does not hold because if we attach arms to Venus, it will most likely destroy its unicity; same with the Michelangelo's work. However, the unicity of the Legendarium will remain, no matter what other books of fiction appear; it cannot be affected.

davem · 06-04-2007, 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynor

While this is valid for issues like Bombadil & co, I doubt we can safely generalise this for all the gaps. From what can be seen from CT's comments in various places, in many cases Tolkien simply forgot to close gaps.

I was referring to the untold, or unfinished stories - like the fall of Gondolin & the War of Wrath, or Beren & Luthien.

Quote:

However, can we equate writing fiction with presenting false events (the tour) as being real?

We can in this case, as the fiction, in a real sense, is the man.

Quote:

The "Legendarium written by Tolkien" will remain incomplete, no matter how many books, written by others, appear to complete it; it is a truism. Your analogy does not hold because if we attach arms to Venus, it will most likely destroy its unicity; same with the Michelangelo's work. However, the unicity of the Legendarium will remain, no matter what other books of fiction appear; it cannot be affected.

Why the desire for other writers to tell new M-e stories then? The generally expressed reason is that people want to know more, to have the gaps in the Legendarium filled for them. They're using that letter to Waldman to support 'other hands' taking up the story & continuing it.

Feanorsdoom · 06-04-2007, 04:35 PM

Davem, I understand your belief in the importance of keeping Tolkien's work distinct from that which might be done in his name; no one here wants to see Disney's The Hobbit II. But Tolkien's world is very much like the historical Egypt before modern archaeology. There are minds every bit as creative and subtle as the Master's, however you may idolize him, and some of those minds will not be content to let the beauty of Middle-earth languish in dusty volumes. Arda began as a thought in one man's head and that man is gone, but Arda is not. The Silmarils are still waiting to be found, and some day, they will be.

Lalwendë · 06-04-2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

Oh yes they can...

Too right. I think the day the Tolkien estate allows 'novelisations' is a long, long, long time off - if ever. Tolkien will be no 'Virginia Andrews'!

Seriously, this stuff is great for fun, or if you do something completely different - some humour, satire, parody, smut, incorporating aspects into wholly new creations blah blah...but if you have the talent to spend hours writing fan fic, why not take the leap and write some of your own stuff? Even fan fic is OK in comparison to some of the 'serious' or 'scholarly' attempts to rewrite and so forth - a certain TS member is alleged to have browbeaten one of the family into allowing a certain rewritten book to be published but even then they only allowed a print run of something like 50 copies, and it's a long way from being accepted! These fans are probably the ones wasting talents more than anyone. Please, get out there with your own work! It's not that the Tolkien written work is not good (on the contrary so much of it is wonderful) but it will never be officially sanctioned and I often lament about the original books that will never be written.

It's worth noting Tolkien envisioned art, music or drama to enrich his writings - isn't there enough there to be getting creative with?

06-04-2007, 01:02 PM	#2
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	When does the copyright on Lord of the Rings run out? When it does, wouldn't that open the floodgates? __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering.

06-04-2007, 03:25 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	The whole problem is in the way people who want continuations of Tolkien's stories are looking at this. Its as if they see Middle-earth as equivalent to Ancient Egypt . A Historian writes a series of books on the history of Egypt, but leaves gaps in the narrative. Unfortunately he dies before he can complete his project, but some readers are so fascinated by the period that they demand other historians take up the baton & complete the story. And that's possible because Egypt has a history, & the truth about it can be discovered & made available. Now, Middle-earth in not like that. The gaps in the story are there because Tolkien never invented anything to fill them. There is nothing to be discovered. The fact that Tolkien failed to fill the gaps, while at the same time focussing on other parts of the story to the extent that he re-wrote them over & over, tells us a great deal about the man who invented the world. To 'fill' those gaps is effectively to create a false impression of the creation. Look. its like an American fan wishing that Tolkien had visited the US in the 50's to promote LotR. The fan decides that in order to satisfy his desire he will invent a promotional tour by Tolkien, including meetings with prominent American fantasy & Science Fiction writers, & attempt to get this included in a reprint of Carpenter's biography - why not, if its a good story, well written, & serves to entertain other Tolkien fans? Well, because its not true. Tolkien never went to America in the 50's. Just as Tolkien never completed his Legendarium. But its incompleteness is part of its nature. To add new stories by new writers just to 'fill in the gaps' is equivalent to deciding to stick arms on the Venus de Milo. Of course you could get a decent sculptor to knock up a pair of arms & attach them in order to 'finish the thing off' - in fact, that at least could be justified in that the statue did have arms at one time. But look at this, an unfinished work by Michelangelo http://www.ablemuse.com/premiere/bho...unfinished.htm Should we hire someone competent to finish it off? Read the accompanying poem. If we got someone to finish off the sculpture, what, exactly would we have gained, in comparison to what we would lose? Its the very fact that the Legendarium is incomplete that adds to the poignancy, the feeling of what might have been, if only... Its a metaphor for life __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

06-04-2007, 01:28 PM	#3
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	davem ... the overwhelming weight of my post was in response to yours as a stereotpyed characterization of people who want more Middle-earth tales. I thought then, and still do now, that you set up these people as weak strawmen and then you dealt with them with derision and sarcasm. I thought that was unfair. You are obviously an extremely well informed Tolkien scholar who has very well thought out opinions. For my two cents, you stand on much more solid ground when you deal with the actual issue at hand rather than attempt to unfairly stereotype people with ideas different than the ones you hold.

06-04-2007, 04:35 PM	#7
Feanorsdoom Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2007 Location: Fort Worth, Texas Posts: 27	Davem, I understand your belief in the importance of keeping Tolkien's work distinct from that which might be done in his name; no one here wants to see Disney's The Hobbit II. But Tolkien's world is very much like the historical Egypt before modern archaeology. There are minds every bit as creative and subtle as the Master's, however you may idolize him, and some of those minds will not be content to let the beauty of Middle-earth languish in dusty volumes. Arda began as a thought in one man's head and that man is gone, but Arda is not. The Silmarils are still waiting to be found, and some day, they will be.