THIS exists in M-E?

[Volo]

"The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."

"Poor Bilbo couldn't bear it any longer. At may never return he began to feel a shriek coming up inside, and very soon it burst out like the whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel."

So, what do we have here:

1. "express train like a dragon passing" (with bursts)
It's hard to make a slow caravan of wagons from this. Deffinitely refers to something fast. Though we shouldn't forget the "express"-part which means that the train is for passangers. So it can't be a mine cart either. And the "dragon"-part, doesn't it form the words "smoke" and "long", "big" and "wormish" in your mind?

2. "whistle of an engine coming out of a tunnel" (with bursts)
It is even harder to imagine this refering to anything but a steam engine of a train.

First I thought that this could refer to some invention of Saruman, as seen in the film (if I'm not confusing things), or a mine cart. Now it is pretty impossible to connect this with Saruman or mine carts.

Sorry, Legate, I can only think of something like the train in Harry Potter from the phrases above, and I very much doubt that anything like that would exist in M-e. Though this is an interesting subject!

[Lalwendë]

Sorry, I can't get the image of those little ride-on steam trains you get in kids' parks out of my mind. Maybe some eccentric elderly men who liked having an uber train set to play with (under the guise of providing a 'service' to the local recreation department) left behind their model railway and the Hobbits later found it - of course it would be 'just their size'. Meh.

Hmm, thinking about Saruman and how far he and others had come in terms of technology, a steam train would not be entirely out of the question (though I could not place one in The Shire at all). Gandalf had developed some advanced ballistics with his Fireworks, Sauron seemed to be using advanced weaponry systems st the Battle of the Pelennor Fields, including flamethrowers and petrol-based ballistics. Saruman was already on to using gunpowder in weaponry, and Gandalf must have known about its uses too - maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?

Historically, some developments were rapidly followed by others. Hmmm, my memory of the exact inventors is rusty, but I think it was Newcommen who developed the steam engine and it was a mere handful of years alter that the forst railways were being built. What, exactly, did Saruman have in operation down at Isengard?

There is also the possibility it refers to other kinds of train. That East Road sounds suspiciously well surfaced to me what with all the quick movements along it and the existence of little 'toll houses' when the Hobbits return at the end of RotK. Turnpikes? Maybe!

And of course there is the fact that The Shire seems suspiciously much more advanced than other societies in Middle-earth, what with its umbrellas, clocks and egalitarian system of Government. It's at the very least reflective of a regency village society and has a lot of the Edwardian too. It's certainly not medieval!

[Boromir88]

maybe Boro, our fireworks expert can clarify whether fireworks must use gunpowder to work?~Lal

Fireworks expert hey? Well I'm not a pyrotechnic chemist that creates them, but I can share the basic ingredients needed in fireworks and what creates those dazzling displays.

One of the needs (and probably it is the biggest one) is black powder. Black powder is necessary for two things, first the initial burst of the shell out of the tube and then also to ignite the time-delay fuse in the shell which sends the pellets or stars bursting out creating the colorful display. Basically stick a shell in a coardboard tube, and attach a fuse. In the shell there are seperate chambers, where in one is the black powder, and in another are what is called the 'stars.' And the stars are just little cubes of different chemicals. It's these chemicals that create the various colors...barium, sodium, aluminum...etc, just a wide range of these stars of various chemicals creates the reds, blues, greens...etc.

Because fireworks were first created by the Chinese not for entertainment purposes, but to scare of evil spirits. It's the black powder that creates the loud bang, and if you only use black powder you would only have a yellowish-orangish light. Where when you pack the shell with different chemicals you get different colors and that it is that discovery which led to fireworks being used for entertainment. Because, tt's not the actual explosion that creates the various color, what you're watching is these 'stars' of chemicals burning when they are thrown out of the shell. Then depending upon how you pack these 'stars' of chemicals in the shell determines the shape that is created when the stars are sent flying out of the shell.

There's a bunch of other complicated things that create different effects now adays. For instance, you can put an some sort of oxidizer which slows down the burning of the stars and that creates the drizzling effect, as the stars burn slower. But that's the basic firework in a nut'shell.'

You may be able to use something else to fuel the shell and create the explosion, but the chinese found black powder worked well for what they wanted...a loud bang which would scare away evil spirits. And over time fireworks grew into being used for dazzling entertainment, so we just stuck with black powder to creae the explosion and then packed the shell with various pellets of chemicals and depending upon their placement is what creates all the seperate colors and the shape of the firework. As the black powder is necessary for two things in the firework, to create that initial burst out of the tube, and then to set off the time-delay fuse which spreads the 'stars' out of the shell. When the firework reaches its maximum height, the time-delay fuse sends the stars flying out of shell. Hope you have learned all you need to know for creating your own fireworks now (just kidding by the way I do not advocate that )

As far as Gandalf's fireworks, my guess would be he enhances it's entertainment with his magic. As we are currently struggling with designs like a walmart smiley face. Where Gandalf has a firework that creates a dragon and a large mountain. So, either Gandalf understood even more complex physics than our pyrotechnic chemists have yet to figure out, or Gandalf magically enhances his fireworks for entertainment purposes.

[Feanorsdoom]

This isn't a modern invention by any means, but it has, in my opinion, an origin in Ea that's pretty illogical. Presumably first invented by the Valar and given to the Eldar or thought up by the Elves in Valinor, it just seems too large of a step. Why not an evolution in armor and weapons like in the real world? Is there some divine symbolism to a weapon of war (as opposed to hunting weapons) in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

[Morwen]

Originally Posted by Feanorsdoom

This isn't a modern invention by any means, but it has, in my opinion, an origin in Ea that's pretty illogical. Presumably first invented by the Valar and given to the Eldar or thought up by the Elves in Valinor, it just seems too large of a step. Why not an evolution in armor and weapons like in the real world? Is there some divine symbolism to a weapon of war (as opposed to hunting weapons) in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

Is this not addressed in the Silmarillion?

High princes were Feanor and Fingolfin, the elder sons of Finwe, honoured by all in Aman; but now they grew proud and jealous each of his rights and his possession.

....And when Melkor saw that these lies were smouldering, and that pride and anger were awake among the Noldor, he spoke to them concerning weapons; and in that time the Noldor began the smithying of swords and axes and spears.....And Feanor made a secret forge, of which not even Melkor was aware; and there he tempered fell swords for himself and for his sons,.... Silmarillion, Of the Silmarils

[Galin]

Morwen, yes that's from the Silmarillion of course, and Tolkien was still musing on the matter. See William Cloud Hickli's post above, which is based on text from the Later Quenta Silmarillion II, Morgoth's Ring.

'Now the Quendi had possessed weapons in Middle-earth, but not of their own devising. They had been made by Aule and sent as gifts by the hand of Orome, when it became known to the Valar that the Quendi were beset by prowling evils that had discovered the places of their dwelling beside Cuiviénen; and more were sent later for the defence of the Eldar upon the Great March to the shores of the Sea. ...' JRRT LQS (52a)

In 52b Feanor still makes a secret forge and etc in any case. See also Christopher Tolkien's commentary that follows these sections in the book.

[Feanorsdoom]

Yes, thanks for the reminder about Melkor in between the Chaining and the death of the Trees. It shows that he must have been contemplating how best to have Elves kill each other beforehand, because wouldn't need weapons himself, of course. Still, it brings the question of what versions of these JRRT intended. Britain didn't have an advanced weapons tradition until the Romans and Norse showed up. Did JRRT sketch swords or spears or talk about armor as closely as he did banners?

[Morwen]

Alright. But in both the Silmarillion and the quote from the Quenta Silmarillion that cite, we are provided with explanations, and IMHO, reasonable explanations as to how the Elves come to have weapons. And the explanations seem to answer the question of why there is no "evolution of in armour and weapons". So what I'm querying is Feanordoom's assertion that the appearance of weapons among the elves is illogical.

EDIT : Cross posted with Feanorsdoom

[HerenIstarion]

Legate of Amon Lanc

Though personally being in favour of 'Translator's Conceit' idea, I'll feed you some other idea if you really need to have railways in Middle-Earth...

HoME, Volume V, II. THE FALL OF NUMENOR.

The old line of the lands remained as a plain of air upon which only the Gods could walk, and the Eldar who faded as Men usurped the sun. But many of the Numenorie could see it or faintly see it; and tried to devise ships to sail on it. But they achieved only ships that would sail in Wilwa or lower air

Ibid, LOST ROAD. Chapter II, Alboin and Audoin

The world is not a machine that makes other machines after the fashion of Sauron

So you may consider words 'express-train' and 'engine' (this latter when it refers to a train, not engine in general, I suppose) not as things new and only known in the Shire, but as legends/rumours/memory of things that were, or might have been in Númenor, devised either by Númenoreans themselves (as ships to fly the air) or by Sauron (machines making machines. I, Saurobot, made these... ). Probably Sauron, unless they've used coal - just in his line, to cut trees and burn them to make a thing made of iron move

[Feanorsdoom]

HerenIstarion, although those passages don't explicitly speak of trains or steam-driven vehicles in general, the undoubted mention of Numenorian airplanes hit me like a brick when I first read it. It one of JRRT's ideas that I find most confounding in all his works, for, if they had gotten that far, how could they have not used it to greater effect or lose the knowledge later? One can imagine these flying ship to have been powered by fell magic of Sauron that was later taken away or the particular genius of Men who died in the Fall. Either way would round up the 'great civilization now perished' nicely, but oh, so little is actually said on the matter!

As far as locomotives, however, I think we are finally left with a gap. There were no mechanical trains in M-e of the Third Age, or there would have had to be a much greater foothold for an industrial revolution of Men, who surely would not do such things in a small enough way to only be mentioned by Hobbits in passing.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

in a world where no 'people' could actually die? And, most importantly, why would the Noldor develop them in the first place at a time when there were no enemies? As far as I can remember (and I've been ODing on HoMe for months), there's no 'aha!' moment when Melkor says to the Noldor, "Now you're gonna need these because the Valar aren't your friends."

This one puzzled JRRT, too, I think he finally decided that Orome gave them weapons for the Great March, when of course they would have needed them.

It's however worth mentioning that the Sindar appear to have been armed with axes and spears prior to the Noldor's return.

[narfforc]

I had always taken Ted Sandymans mill as a representation of his boyhood memories. The description of: a great brick building straddling the stream, which it fouled with a steaming and stinking outflow, add the fact that Sandyman is: grimy faced and black handed, also the great chimney and it is obvious that Sandyman is working/cleaning some kind of machinery, in fact it was filled with wheels and outlandish contraptions to grind more and faster according to one of the Cottons. Coal/Wood-Chimney-Steam are what I always thought was going on here, maybe I am wrong, what else is he up to, did Saruman import his Tekromancy into the Shire?. After Sharkey turns up there seems to be some sort of industry going on in the mill, but the ruffians are said to be carrying clubs and no other weapons, if the mill was now a smithy surely they would have iron/metal weapons.