Narn I Chîn Húrin 1: Túrins Fostering

[Findegil]

Just an after thought: Seeing that we have now Andróg two times heald from deadly wounds of arrows by Beleg this seems a bit strange. If I were completlly free to deal with the text my edditng would run in this line:
- Andróg would curse Mîm to dy with an arrow in his throath.
- Andróg would only be wounded at the battle of Amon Ruð, and then heald by Beleg.
- Andróg would be a member of Húrins band when he comes to Nargothrond:

...
§276 (§4d) TT Then {Úrin}[Húrin] wavered, but his men were wroth at that, so that he bid them seize it all, and Mîm stood by and watched, and he broke forth into terrible and evil curses.
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed{.}>RD-EX-11.51<editorial bridge and one among them was Andróg. And Mîm reconising him saw that Beleg><Ap Narn had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said.><editorial bridge But it is sung that
><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog]
by {an orc-}[Andróg's ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
§279 (§8) RD-SL-05 {And the curse came upon the possessors in this wise. Each one of Húrin's company died or was slain in quarrels upon the road; but Húrin went unto Thingol and sought his aid, and the folk of Thingol bore the treasure to the Thousand Caves.}<TT Now {Úrin}[Húrin] caused his followers to bear this gold to the halls of {Tinwelint}[Thingol], ...

But we are not free to use the text and the ideas in it as free as that I deem.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Interisting enough I found something, to support my idea of Andróg being a member of Húrins Band at Nargothrond. We used it already at the begining of the Narn:

NA-TI-01b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A Here begins that tale which {Ælfwine}[was] made from the {Húrinien}[Narn i Chîn Húrin]: ... From Mablung he learned much; and by fortune also he found a man named Andvír, and he was very old, but was the son of that Andróg who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and alone survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð]. Otherwise all that time between the flight of Túrin from Doriath and his coming to Nargothrond, and Túrin's deeds in those days, would have remained hidden, save the little that was remembered among the people of Nargothrond concerning such matters as Gwindor or Túrin ever revealed. In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear. This lay was all that {Dírhavel}[Dírhaval] ever made, ...

Doesn't "In this way also the matter of Mîm and his later dealings with Húrin were made clear." in this context imply that Andróg witnessed these events as well? So may be we should skip the first healing of Andróg by Beleg and take only the wound recived on the summit of Amon Ruð, and use the note that the curse should bit agian in the meting of Húrin and his band including Andróg with Mîm at Nargothrond.

As yet this has only be a futtile idea, but since it finds now some support from inside Tolkiens on writings I like to concret the ideas of editing a bit more:

Then Mîm rose, and looked long at Túrin. ‘I hear you,’ he said. ‘You speak like a Dwarf-lord of old; and at that I marvel. Now my heart is cooled, though it is not glad. My own ransom I will pay, therefore: you may dwell here, if you will. But this I will add: he that loosed the shaft shall break his bow and his arrows and lay them at my son's feet; and he shall never take arrow nor bear bow again. If he does, he shall die by it. That curse I lay on him.’
Andróg was afraid when he heard of this curse; and though he did so with great grudge, he broke his bow and his arrows and laid them at the dead Dwarf's feet. But as he came out from the chamber, he glanced evilly at Mîm, and muttered: ‘The curse of a Dwarf never dies, they say; but a Man's too may come home. NA-TI-09b May he die with a dart in his throat!{<NA; note 18 May he lack a bow at need ere his end.>}’{18}
...
Then Túrin was abashed, and in that matter overcame his pride.> NA-TI-15.3 and they{And his men} were quickly healed NA-EX-35.1 <CoH . For in those days the Grey-elves were still a high people, possessing great power, and they were wise in the ways of life and of all living things; and>{, for} though {the Grey-elves}<CoH they> were less in {skill and knowledge}<CoH craft and lore> than the Exiles from Valinor{, in the ways of the life of Middle-earth} they had {a wisdom}<CoH many arts> beyond the reach of Men. NA-EX-36d <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated; and Mîm's hatred of Beleg became all the fiercer, for he had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said. }It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.

> NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring,<CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> {he}He came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH And ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Túrin paid now little heed to the Dwarf{; and when}.
...
It has been told that when Mîm surrendered his hidden dwelling on {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] to Túrin and his company, he demanded that he who had loosed the arrow that slew his son should break his bow and his arrows and lay them at the feet of Khîm; and that man was Andróg. Then with great illwill Andróg did as Mîm bade. Moreover Mîm declared that Andróg must never again bear bow and arrow, and he laid a curse on him, that if nevertheless he should do so, then would he meet his own death by that means.
Now in the spring of that year Andróg defied the curse of Mîm and took up a bow again in a foray from {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] NA-EX-36c .{; and in that foray he was struck by a poisoned orc-arrow, and was brought back dying in pain. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but {it seems that }his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated>. And now the hatered that Mîm bore to Beleg was increased still more, for he had thus undone his curse; but ‘it will bite again,’ he said. It came into Mîm's mind that if he also ate the lembas of Melian he would renew his youth and grow strong again; and since he could not come at it by stealth he feigned sickness and begged it of his enemy. When Beleg refused it to him the seal was set upon Mîm's hatred, and all the more because of Túrin's love for the Elf.>}
...
Túrin and Beleg retreated into the cave, and rolled a great stone across the passage. In these straits Andróg revealed to them the hidden stair leading to the flat summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] which he had found when lost in the caves, as has been told. Then Túrin and Beleg with many of their men went up by this stair and came out on the summit, surprising those few Orcs who had already come there by the outer path, and driving them over the edge. For a little while they held off the Orcs climbing up the rock, but they had no shelter on the bare summit, and many were shot from below. Most valiant of these was Andróg, who fell NA-SL-02c mortally wounded by an arrow at the head of the outside stair.
Then Túrin and Beleg with the ten men left to them drew back to the center of the summit, where was a standing stone, and making a ring about it they defended themselves until all were slain save Beleg and Túrin, for over them the orcs cast nets. Túrin was bound and carried off; Beleg who was wounded was bound likewise, but he was laid on the ground with wrists and ankles tied to iron pins driven in to the rock.
Now the Orcs, finding the issue of the secret stair, left the summit and entered {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð], which they defiled and ravaged. They did not find Mîm, luking in his caves, and when they had departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] Mîm appeared on the summit, and going to where Beleg lay prostrate and unmoving he gloated over him while he sharpend a knife.
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b {<Ap Narn It was only then that {he}[Andróg] revealed to Túrin the existence of the inner stair; and he was one of those who came by that way to the summit. There he is said to have fought more valiantly than any, NA-SL-02 but he fell at last{ mortally} wounded {by an arrow; and thus the curse of Mîm was fulfilled.}> NA-TI-20 <Sil77 But a net was cast over Túrin as he fought, and he was enmeshed in it, and overcome, and led away.
And at length when all was silent again Mîm crept out of the shadows of his house; and as the sun rose over the mists of Sirion he stood beside the dead men on the hill-top. But he perceived that not all those that lay there were dead; for by one his gaze was returned, and he looked in the eyes of Beleg the Elf. Then with hatred long-stored Mîm stepped up to Beleg, and drew forth the sword Anglachel that lay beneath the body of one that had fallen beside him; but Beleg stumbling up seized back the sword and thrust it at the Dwarf, and Mîm in terror fled wailing from the hill-top.} And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him NA-SL-02.2b {.}; but{ dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to Angband; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-TI-21b <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; and {he sought in vain among the dead for Túrin, to bury him. But he found him not; and then he knew that Húrin's son was yet alive, and taken to Angband}. NA-EX-42.1b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð],><CoH he was brought back dying in pain to Bar-enm-Danweð. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated>. Then with{With} little hope Beleg departed from {Amon Rûdh}[Amon Rûð] and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach. And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.>NA-EX-43b <editorial bridge And of this in the Narn it is told:
><Lay NA-EX-44{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
...
...
...
RD-EX-02.5 <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02.7 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods <RD-EX-03 editorial addition to make a the term wood-men understandable south of Taeglin> and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).>RD-EX-0.5 <TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.}<taken from Lay of the Children of Húrin {till outcast folk
there}There also one by one,{ __ wild and reckless
}around him railed; /outcast folk, wild and reckless;/><taken from Sill77 such houseless and desperate man as could be found in those evil days lurking in the wild; and><[b]editorial addtion based on Aelfwine & Dírhaval A; taken from Narn[B] {The}the grimmest among them was {one named }Andróg,><Aelfwine & Dírhaval A who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. ...
...

Follwed by the scene of Mîm's death as in the last posting up to the point were Mîm uttered his 'it will bit again'. The rest of the passages in my last post is probably to freely interpreted to be useable in this project.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

Reading the parts of Andróg as member of Húrins band again I find myself moved to edit parts of it again:

...
But Mîm and Beleg were not the only living beings on that stony height. Andróg, though himself wounded NA-SL-02.1 to the death, crawled among the dead bodies towards them, and seizing a sword he thrust it at the Dwarf. Shrieking in fear Mîm ran to the brink of the cliff and disappeared: he fled down a steep and difficult goat’s path that was known to him. NA-EX-41b {<Sil77 And Beleg cried after him: ‘The vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet!’> But Andróg putting forth his last strength cut through the wristbands and fetters that bound Beleg, and so released him; but NA-SL-02.2b { dying} he said: ‘My hurts are too deep even for your healing.’
The death of Beleg {NA-EX-42 <Lay Beleg>}
Beleg sought among the dead for Túrin, to bury him; but he could not discover his body. He knew then that Húrin’s son was still alive, and taken to AngbandNA-EX-41.15{;}. <Sil77 Now Beleg was sorely wounded, but he was mighty among the Elves of Middle-earth, and he was moreover a master of healing. Therefore he did not die, and slowly his strength returned; but he remained perforce in {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] until his wounds were healed.> NA-EX-42.1b <Aelfwine & Dírhaval A And in this way also Andróg {who was in the outlaw-band of Túrin, and} alone[ of the outlaw-band of Túrin] survived the battle on the summit of Amon Rûdh.> <CoH {he}He was brought back dying in pain to Bar-en-Danweð. But Beleg healed him of his wound NA-EX-36b <Ap Narn {Andróg was cured of this wound by Beleg}, but it seems that his dislike and distrust of the Elf was not thereby mitigated;>NA-EX-43c <editorial bridge since it is sung about Beleg in the Narn:

><Lay NA-EX-44b{he}He fared to the forest{. __ No}; __ no fellows sought he {735}
in his hopeless hazard, __ but in haste alone
he followed the feet __ of the foes of Elfland,
the dread daring, __ and the dire anguish,
that held the hearts __ of Hithlum's men 5
and Doriath's doughtiest __ in a dream of fear. {740}
Unmatched among Men, __ or magic-wielding
Elves, or hunters __ of the Orc-kindred,
or beasts of prey __ for blood pining,
was his craft and cunning, __ that cold and dead 10
an unseen slot __ could scent o'er stone, {745}
foot-prints could find __ on forest pathways
that lightly on the leaves __ were laid in moons
long waned, and washed __ by windy rains.
The grim Glamhoth's __ goblin armies 15
go cunning-footed, __ but his craft failed not {750}
to tread their trail, __ till the lands were darkened,
and the light was lost __ in lands unknown.>

With little hope Beleg departed from Amon Rûdh and set out northward, towards the Crossings of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]{, following in the track of the Orcs; and he crossed over the Brithiach and journeyed through Dimbar towards the Pass of Anach.} And now he was not far behind them, for he went without sleeping, whereas they had tarried on their road, hunting in the lands and fearing no pursuit as they came northward{; and not even in the dreadful woods of Taur-nu-Fuin did he swerve from the trail, for the skill of Beleg was greater than any that have been in Middle-earth}.
NA-EX-44.1 <CoH He{ set out then with little hope to try to find the trail of the Orcs, and he} came upon their tracks near the Crossing of {Teiglin}[Taeglin]. There they divided, some passing along the eaves of the Forest of Brethil towards the Ford of Brithiach, while others turned away westwards; and it seemed plain to Beleg that he must follow those that went direct with greatest speed to Angband, making for the Pass of Anach. Therefore he journeyed on through Dimbar, and up to the Pass of Anach in Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and so to the highlands of Taur-nu-Fuin, the Forest under Night, a region of dread and dark enchantment, of wandering and despair{.} NA-EX-44.2 <editorial bridge , of which in the Lay it is told:
...
...
...
§267 (§1a) RD-EX-01 <WH Now it is said that those who {…}/sided/ with Hardang were not all caught, and others came in hearing the news, and there was fighting in the Obel, and a great burning, until all was well nigh destroyed. But when the {madness [written above: }wrath{]} of men had cooled they made peace, and some said: 'What hath bewitched us? Surely Húrin begot all this evil, and Hardang and {Avranc}[Daruin] were more wise. They would have kept him out if they could.' So they chose {Avranc}[Daruin] to be their chief, since none of the House of Haleth were left, but {[?? }he wielded no{]} such authority and reverence as the Chieftains before, and the Folk of Brethil fell back again to be more like their kinsmen in the {[?}open{]} woods - each minding his own houselands and little {...}[clearings] and their {...}[confederation] was loosened.>
§268 (§1b) {Húrin gathered therefore a few outlaws of the woods unto him, and they came to Nargothrond, which as yet none, Orc, Elf, or Man, had dared to plunder, for dread of the spirit of Glomund and his very memory.} RD-SL-01 <Conclusion of the second draft Manuscript WH; Note 54 But some misliked this and would not serve under {Avranc}[Daruin] and made ready to depart, <WH Note 54 Isolated page end and others there were who {despair}despaired now of defending Brethil from the growing strength of Morgoth and {wish}wished to fly south> and they joined Húrin.> RD-EX-02.7b <WH, Note 54, Text 2 But now Húrin {seems}seemed to pick up strength and youth - vengeance {seems}seemed to have heartened him, and he {[ ] and walks}walked now strongly. They {pass}passed into the woods and {gather}gathered the last fugitives of the wood-men (the kin of the folk of Brethil).> [b]RD-EX-03.1b[b] <WH, Note 54, Text 2 A few men fearing the end of Brethil and desiring to flee further from Morgoth - having no homes or lands of their own - {are}were willing to go with Hurin.>
§269 (§1d) RD-EX-02 <WH, Note 54, Text 2 At the Taeglin crossing they {fall}fell in with Asgon, who {has}had heard rumour of the wild deeds in Brethil, and of Húrin's coming, and {are}was now venturing back into the land to seek him. Asgon {greets}greeted him - and {is}was glad that {Harathor}[Hardang] {has}had been punished. And he was angered {Angered} that no one had told Húrin of their coming.>
§270 (§1e) RD-EX-04 <WH, Note 54, Text 1 {Asgorn}[Asgon] they {choose}chose for captain, but he {treats}treated Húrin as lord, and {does}did as he {will}willed. /And he asked therefore Húrin:/ ‘Whither shall we go? {They}/We/ must {[? }know{]} a place of refuge.’ /And/ Húrin {elects}elected to go to Nargothrond.>

RD-EX-02.5b <WH, Note 57 Húrin in Nargothrond>

§271 (§1f) RD-EX-05 <WH, Year 501 of The Grey Annals Of the wanderings of Húrin[ and his men] there is no tale told, until {he}they came at last late in {this}[the] year to Nargothrond. It is said that he had then gathered to him other fugitives and masterless men in the wild, RD-EX-05.3{and}<TT; Note 33 {Now therefore he gathered to him a band of wild men, and} they were waxen a fiercy and lawless folk that dwelt not with their kin, who thrust them into the hills to live or die as they might.><editorial addtion based on Aelfwine & Dírhaval A; taken from Narn The grimmest among them was {one named }Andróg,><Aelfwine & Dírhaval A who {was}had been in the outlaw-band of Túrin.> Thus Húrin came south with a following of a hundred or more. But why it was that he went to Nargothrond is uncertain, save that so his doom and the fate of the Jewels led him. ...
...
§277 (§5) TT Thereat did {Úrin}[Húrin] smite him, saying: ‘We came but to take what was not thine - now for thy evil words we will take what is thine as well, even thy life.{'}> RD-EX-11.5 <Sil77 And{and} not unknown is it to me by whom the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin was betrayed.'>
§278 (§6) <TT But Mîm dying said unto {Úrin}[Húrin]: ‘Now Elves and Men shall rue this deed, and because of the death of Mîm the dwarf shall death follow this gold so long as it remain on Earth, and a like fate shall every part and portion share with the whole.’ And {Úrin}[Húrin] shuddered, but his folk laughed.> RD-EX-11.51<editorial bridge and one among them was Andróg. And Mîm reconising him saw that Beleg><Ap Narn had thus {"}undone{"} his curse upon Andróg. ‘It will bite again,’ he said.><editorial bridge But it is sung that

><Lay of the Children of Húrin {The}the dawn over {Doriath}[Narog] __ dimly kindled {695}
saw {Blodrin Bor's son}[Mîm the petty-dwarf] __ by a beech standing
with throat thriléd __ by a thrusting arrow,
whose shaven shaft, __ shod with {poison}[iron],
and feather-wingéd, __ was fast in the tree. [5]
He bargained the blood __ of {his brothers}Túrin's band for gold: {700}
this his meed meted - __ in the mirk at {random}[Narog];
by {an orc-}[Andróg's ]arrow __ his {oath}[curse] came home.>
...

I will comment on some points tomorrow since I have to run now.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Wow, it been a long time since I posted in the project. I need to ask a question first with the generalities of the text.
Since the new Children of Húrin, our base text for the story of Túrin are the Narn found in Unfinished Tales and what we have in the Published Silmarillion.
Now that we have a new Narn, besides the small differences from the previous sources does it affects our base text.
For example, if we have the same two parragraphs from both the Sil77 and the newNarn, should we present it belonging to which one?

Ok, now to begin
About NA-TI-02b.

NA-TI-02b <CoH But now the tale returns to Húrin and Huor in the days of their youth. It is said that for a while the sons of Galdor dwelt in Brethil as foster-sons of Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time. They often went to battle with the Men of Brethil against the Orcs, who now harried the northern borders of their land; for Húrin, though only seventeen years of age, was strong, and Huor the younger was already as tall as most full-grown men of that people.
On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brother were pursued to the ford of Brithiach.

The original text from the Gray Annals

§161 It is said that at this time Húrin and Huor, the sons of Galion were dwelling with Haleth [added later: their kinsman] as fostersons (as the custom then was among northern Men); and they went both to battle with the Orcs, even Huor, for he would not be restrained, though he was but thirteen years in age. And being with a company that was cut off from the rest, they were pursued to the ford of Brithiach;

Posted by Findegil

This is the intro to the yourney to Gondolin. It is changed in sofar as the battle with the Orcs is not a speacial one which in my view is disearable. I changed the complet text of teh Gondolin episode to CoH since it is easier in the text composition without changing anythink substantially from out composit text from Sil77 and GA.

I may miss something, but why is that battle with the Orcs not desirable?

[Findegil]

Basis text: If we would start from scratch right now we would for sure take CoH as our basis for the editing process. But as it is we have already done a lot with the Narn of the Unfinished Tales as basic text. Therefore what I did so fare was editing our text by introducing all diffrences I observed to CoH. This leads often to very confusing editings. If we have agreed of how the text should read in the end, I will undertake the task of 'cleaning' the editing. That means I will probably change the basic text and skip all preliminary editing. But for the moment I found it necessary to dokument how we had come to the text as it was before CoH.

Only in one point the are the text from Unfinished Tales and GA more reliable then the text from CoH and that is the use of the old personal pronome 'thou'.

Na-TI-02b:
My appologies for not been as clear as needed.
In CoH the battle in which Húrin and Hour are driven ofer the Brithiach is not a specific one but one of a series of skirmishs at the nothern border of Brethil.
In GA (and following this source in Sil77) it is a specially mentioned battle that came to pass after the capture of Tol Sirion by Sauron because the Orcs drove into Beleriand.

The question is which source we follow. Or to be more specific do we mention the graeter geo-politic meaning of the fights.

CoH has the higher priority as a source text, but GA provides more information. I scipt the text of GA and toke CoH instaed, but that could be discussed.
I did incooperat the information about that battle from GA into the chapter Of the Ruin of Beleriand (which is not jet here in the forum) and found it textually difficult to repeat it here or to back-reference the reader. Therefore the solution in CoH to make the fight in which Húrin and Huor are lost unspecific worked very good for me.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Findegil]

So now some comments about the changes I introduced in posting #28:

NA-SL-02.1 Can we say ‘wounded to the death’ if the object of that phrase does in the event not died?

NA-EX-41b I just cleaned the editing.

NA-EX-41.15 Here I mixed the texts a bit more to make it more fluent.

NA-EX-42.1b, NA-EX-36b & NA-EX44bThis gives a good reason for Andróg survival. The editing is of course fetching text from here and there, but due to my approach by taking up Andróg survival from Aelfwine & Dírhaval A we have to simplify the matter by deleting the other arrow-wound received during the foray in spring. Thus what was said at this point can be used here if it fits the scene as it does in my opinion. Especially the continued dislike and distrust comes in handy since it explains why Beleg hunted alone for the Orcs that had captured Túrin. That is also the reason why I put the part of the Lay at this position.
In addition I re-entered the passage were we are told that the Orcs did tarried and hunted on the road while Beleg did not sleep. It makes Belegs catching up much more probable.

RD-EX-02.7b RD-EX-03.1b This change follows the discussion about the Woodmen. The conclusion was that most probably the Woodmen had all fled to Brethil but were there not fully integrated fugitives that had no land of their own.

RD-EX-02.5b I changed the position of the sub-chapter heading slightly. Now the heading is followed by a more narrated part before it changes back to direct speech when we arrive at Nargothrond. That seemed to me very fitting for the start of a sub-chapter.

RD-EX-05.3 Here do I introduce the gathering of outlaws from the old sources, to get a good opportunity for Andróg to come into Húrins followers.

RD-EX-11.51 At least we come to the reason we have for all this changes. We have Andróg now here in the Band of Húrin and he is so much angered by Mîm’s ‘It will bite again’ that he makes his own curse true by shooting the dying dwarf through his throat.
It is now my opinion that this scene of the betrayer of Túrin’s Band killed with an arrow in his throat, was a lasting image in Tolkiens mind. It came up first in the Lay were it was Ban, Bors son, who broke the tryst and was killed then by an random flying shaft. Then Tolkien developed the story of Túrin further by introducing Mîm who had beforehand only been the warden of the Dragon hoard. But the image of the death of traitor survived since it is foretold by the curse of Andróg.
Since Tolkien never touched the death of Mîm again after the Lost Tales we have Andrógs curse as the source text with highest priority. But of course curses must not always become true (even so they do very oft in Middle-Earth) and we have two competing versions of the curse.
Now since we have established Andróg as the communicator of the story of Túrins years between his flight from Doritah and the battle of Amon Rudh and, as I believe, about the ‘further dealings of Húrin and Mîm’, we should also take up that image of the traitor of Túrin (now Mîm) dying with a shaft in his throat. Since the Lay is the only source for it, that is in my view what we have to take.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

With the sincerest apologies for my long absence, I offer some comments on the proposed changes. Overall, I think you've done a very nice job of integrating the new information from CoH.

NA-TI-02b <CoH But now the tale returns to Húrin and Huor in the days of their youth. It is said that for a while the sons of Galdor dwelt in Brethil as foster-sons of Haldir their uncle, according to the custom of Men in that time. They often went to battle with the Men of Brethil against the Orcs, who now harried the northern borders of their land; for Húrin, though only seventeen years of age, was strong, and Huor the younger was already as tall as most full-grown men of that people.
On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brother were pursued to the ford of Brithiach. There ...

First of all, I must ask you to refresh my memory about something - have we decided to include Hurin's and Huor's sojourn in Gondolin in the 'Childhood of Turin' chapter rather than the 'Ruin of Beleriand' chapter? Apparently we are, but I can't find where we discussed it.

I take it, though, that we decided to keep the account of the Orc attack on Brethil, when Beleg comes to their aid (s. 160 in GA) in the 'Ruin of Beleriand' chapter, thus separating it from the account of Hurin and Huor (is that right?). I now wonder whether this is advisable. Of course, this is done in the 'Narn', but that is in the context of a stand-alone tale, not a chapter in a longer Silmarillion.

The impression I get from the texts, at any rate, is that the attack in which Hurin and Huor were lost always remained identified with the attack GA section 160 - in other words that it remained this 'special' battle with the Orcs - and that the more generalized reference in CoH is made simply to compress this early portion of the work.

NA-EX-25.02: I'm very hesitant to use the alliterative lay here (and subsequently), though I appreciate that you have done a lot of nice work with the verse. This is, after all, one of the relatively few places where we have a late, complete 'long version' by Tolkien, and in such cases I think that generally the policy should be (and has been) not to insert earlier material for the sole purpose of elaboration.

It remains only to mention that in CoH also the paragraph marked here as NA-EX-27.25 is omited. It seems that this paragraph in Sil77 was composed by Christopher Tolkien as an appropirate answer to Thingols question 'What more would Túrin have me do?' For me tha passage look a bit strange without that answer. Do you agree to add this paragraph even so we know now nearly for sure that it is composed by Christopher Tolkien?

Reading the text in CoH, I actually think it works fine without NA-EX-27.25.

NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring, <CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> {he}He came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH And ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none.

I can't find a source for 'He came to be held in honour among the outlaws' other than QS77 - is this perhaps an editorial addition by CT? I think we must either remove it or reword things slightly:

NA-TI-15.7 {And because}{Because Beleg}<CoH Moreover Beleg the Archer was great among the people of Doriath; he> was strong and enduring, <CoH and> far-sighted in mind as in eye, <CoH and at need he was valiant in battle, relying not only upon the swift arrows of his long bow, but also upon his great sword Anglachel.> , and he came to be held in honour among the outlaws{; but the hatred of Mîm}<CoH {And} But ever the more did hatred grow> for the Elf that had come into {Bar-en-Danwedh}[Bar-en-Danweð] {grew ever greater,} <CoH in the heart of Mîm, who hated all Elves, as has been told, and who looked with a jealous eye on the love that Túrin bore to Beleg.> {and}And he sat with Ibun his son in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none.

NA-TI-16 <Sil77 Who knows now the counsels of Morgoth? Who can measure the reach of his thought, who had been Melkor, mighty among the Ainur of the Great Song, and sat now, a dark lord upon a dark throne in the North, weighing in his malice all the tidings that came to him, <CoH whether by spy or by traitor, seeing in the eyes of his mind and understanding> {and perceiving} more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Melian the Queen{?}.

If Tolkien used a period rather than a question mark there, surely it was a mere mistake. I think we should use the question mark.

I must give the whole matter of Androg some thought before I comment on the changes and proposals relating to him.