Which characters out of the books do you wish had fallen in love?

[muffin_goddess]

I think Merry desrved somebody he's been left alone enough *sniffle* he should have someone who wont ever leave him

[Airedae]

Rosa,

Thanx for answering my question about frodo. i always wondered what became of him after he left. i've grown quite fond of frodo from reading the books again and i just wondered about his life after his departure. that makes me feel better that it said he was somewhat healed, or healed as much as could be as you put it...thanx that helped me feel better. i was sure that sam went to meet him after rosie died but i just wondered if he was still alive. i was just alittle weireded out by the small mention of frodo's life after the departure. oh well...*sigh* thanx that helped...lol. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Kalimac]

muffin_goddess, if you read the family trees you'll see that Merry married Estella Bolger, who presumably did not leave him [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. It's not recorded if they had any children (the way it is with Pippin and his son Faramir Took) but there is a reference in the "Later Events..." chronology which refers to Merry as having at least one son, so presumably there were some children who were somehow slipped out of the family tree [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

It's been a while since I read this thread through, has anyone thought of Shelob? Actually no, she ate most of her spouses...difficult to find lasting happiness under those conditions.

[muffin_goddess]

Thanks, have to say didn't read the end of the l;ast book v. thouroughly I got a new book from a series I hadn't finished it was the last and I wanted to see what happeded to my other set of friends

[Nevtalathiel]

I disagree about Gandalf, if he'd had the right kind of wife, i'm sure he'd have been very happy. the kind of wife who was happy to darn his socks and wash his underwear, but who wasn't surprised if she didn't see him for 6 months!

[Child of the 7th Age]

Someone questioned whether Frodo was still alive when Sam sailed from the Grey Havens to Tol Eressa. I'm quite sure he must have been. In his Letters, Tolkien confirms that mortals who go to Tol Eressa must eventually die, but they have the choice as to where and when that is. It's the same idea that you see in the LOTR appendix about Aragorn. He chose where and when he lay down to die and made sure that Arwen was at his side. I think Bilbo, who was so much older, would have decided to move on after he made sure Frodo was healed as best as could be expected. But I think Frodo would have decided to continue on a bit longer. No way he would have left Tol Eressa before his buddy Sam got there. Otherwise Sam sailing from the Grey Havens doesn't make a lot of sense, since he wouldn't have needed the same physical or even spiritual healing Frodo and even Bilbo did. After Sam's arrival, the two might have caught up with each other's lives and tried to make sense of questions like "why me?", "why you?", "why did Sam get to stay in the Shire with the richness of family while Frodo had to leave immediately?" After that, I think they would have stayed side-by-side and chosen to go on together to the circles beyond the world.

Frodo certainly deserved a loving family, especially because he had been orphaned so young. But I just don't think it was in the cards. An author who created the beauty of Lorien which was said to mirror the timelessness of Valinor and then let this pass from the earth would not have "tidied up" his book by adding domestic arangements for Frodo, even if readers wished it could be so. Above all else, Tolkien loved two things: the legends of the North, in all their stark beauty, and the Catholic religion. Neither of these would permit the kind of accomodation some readers are clamoring for. The northern legends were bleak and often pessimistic, stressing the need for courage even against hopeless odds. And Tolkien's Catholic faith required that some things in life be bought with sacrifice, at least in this world. Remember it wasn't only Frodo who was sacrificing, but the entire coterie of elves who left Middle-earth with obvious reluctance.

There is one thing Tolkien wrote that actually made me feel more comfortable with the sailing from Grey Havens. It's the poem "Bilbo's Last Song" published as a children's book with illustrations by Pauline Baynes. The book is wonderfully illustrated. One part of the page shows Bilbo's memories of his earlier life, and the other half shows the progression of the entire entourage to the Grey Havens, including the segment where Bilbo and Frodo meet up and ride off together with Galadriel, Gilrond, Elrond, and the other elves. This wasn't the happy ending I wanted for Frodo, with the wife, children, and the Shire. But it was a scene of quiet peace blessed by the magic of the departing elves. The poem reads like this:
Bilbo's Last Song
Day is ended, dim my eyes,
But journey long before me lies.
Farewell, friends! I hear the call.
The ship's beside the stony wall.
Foam is white and waves are grey;
Beyond the sunset leads my way.
Foam is salt, the wind is free;
I hear the rising of the Sea.

Farewell, friends! The sails are set,
The wind is east, the moorings fret.
Shadows long before me lie,
Beneath the ever-bending sky,
But islands lay behind the Sun
That I shall raise ere all is done;
Lands there are to west of West,
Where night is quiet and sleep is rest.

Guided by the Lonely Star,
Beyond the utmost harbour-bar,
I'll find the havens fair and free,
And beaches of the Starlit Sea.
Ship, my ship! I seek the West,
And fields and mountains ever blest.
Farewell to Middle-earth at last,
I see the Star above your mast.

J.R.R. Tolkien

sharon [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[ElanorGamgee]

That poem is so beautiful! I almost cried... [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Airedae]

Child of the 7th Age,

Yes, I agree that Frodo was probably still alive when Sam sailed. I was the one that asked the question about Frodos being alive or dead by the way. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I really appreciate what you wrote and the song/poem was beautiful. I just think by reading the books you become quite fond of characters. Frodo being one of the characters that your heart just follows in his and Sam's terrible journey in and out of mordor. I think its just human nature to want someone whos been through so much to have just something good, something that can fill the place of all that pain. that place, unfortunatly, in frodo was never filled. Maybe after going to the undying lands, he found some way of dealing with his anguish and his pain. thanx for posting that song/poem. it was really beautiful and i'll be honest, i did cry. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]
i am a real softie when it comes to that particuliar departure. do you mind if i copy and paste that into a text file to keep with my other Tolkien stuff?

[Thinhyandoiel]

That poem was so sad! Nearly had me in tears. *sniffle* I'm new to this thread, so I had to read most of it. Legolas was mentioned a few times, though all thought he needed a little Elf-maiden. I don't carry this view. I cannot for the life of me see Legolas settling down to married life. I don't think it suits his character. He's young, independent, yadda yadda. But nobody mentioned Gimli. It's dark in my basement right now, so I can't really go searching for my family trees without waking up the guests, so does anyone else know? I don't think either of them married, and then they both sailed West together, right? I loved that, and I have a really touching fic about their time in Valinor. Wait, let me get the link. Ah! Here it is! This fic is SO SO SO Sad!! Beware, major angst alert.

[piosenniel]

i wish Boromir hadn't died. he would have made a good companion, sweetheart for a down to earth lady.

[Maikadilwen]

Oh Thinhyandoiel. Why did you give me the link to that story? Now I'm looking like s**t because I've been crying my eyes out. And I usually don't do such things. My eyes weren't even wet when I saw the movie, but this....!!! [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[firncristwen]

Sharon, you write beautifully and I wish I could pay attention to the didactic parts of Tolkien's work that you ellaborate so well on. My passion for the trilogy and "The Hobbit" encompasses basically how the characters felt, but you went straight to the analysis bones. Very interesting.

[Child of the 7th Age]

This is Sharon back again. I appreciate your positive comments. I wish, oh I wish, it could be otherwise, but I really believe Tolkien meant for Frodo to sail out of Grey Havens to receive healing there.

With all the visions he experienced and the obvious gentleness of his soul, Frodo was one of a kind. Gandalf tells him he has been chosen but never says who does the choosing. With what we know of Tolkien and his legndarium, it's pretty clear to the reader that Eru Iluvatar has picked Frodo as his instrument. Of course, Frodo is free to accept or reject the offer, just as he is free to succeed in the quest or to fail. Being picked for something like this is no picnic. There is a price to pay, and Frodo pays it with some fear and anguish, but relatively little outwardly voiced complaint.

I guess this is why he is my favorite character; his spiritual struggles speak more to me than the outward physical battles of his companions. Oh, yes, there's one other reason why it seems unlikely Frodo would have found a kindred female soul in Middle-Earth. From Elija Wood's admittedly gorgeous portrayal, one gets the definite impression of Frodo being quite young. But, from the book, we know that isn't the case. Frodo got the Ring the day he came of age, which is 33 for hobbits, and then waited years for Gandalf to return and actually set off on the quest. I believe it was 17 years; in any case, he was definitely over 50--Pippin, Merry, and Sam were much younger. Even though the Ring preserves a person, and hobbits live longer than humans, Elijah's Frodo looked much younger than the Frodo in Tolkien's writings. (I understand why they did this for the movie, but it does leave the viewer with a different impression than the book.)

So Frodo, who loved to take long walks and was rumored to have spoken with elves, was no ordinary hobbit. Like Bilbo, Frodo had been on his own for many years; he enjoyed a close group of friends younger than he was. He was a definite non-conformist, and I cherish him for that!

[ April 04, 2003: Message edited by: Child of the 7th Age ]

[Airedae]

I agree Sharon...Frodo has become my favorite character now after reading the trilogy again. I guess when your younger you don't understand things as much as you do when your older. Now that im older and lived through some rough times, often feeling like burdens in their own right, has allowed me to see frodo as someone who had the greatest task to do. i feel for that hobbit...i wanted the best for him, even if it just was going to the undying lands and living there without his beloved shire...

as for the movie portrayal, i think elizah did really good. you are right that the book frodo is indeed older. i think they were just wanting to have a character that is popular and will bring alot of people to see the movie....BUT as i sat there and watched him play frodo, i realized what a great frodo he was. i guess we dont really know how old the hobbits look when they are of age and older. i really just wanted to say that elizah plays the emotions of the burden really well. he cries like its actually himself(elizah)who has to carry the ring to mordor. i wasnt an elizah wood fan until this. i actually appreciate him as the character. like others, i do wish they had some other parts from the book in the movie but im pretty happy with the movie portrayal of the books...we all know the books are written and the movie cant take that away from us...what they do in the movie is just a entertainment type mechanism...i appreciate the books more but still love the movie and will continue to see it..and i will stand in line for the other two also. thats just my devotion to the story. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[The Half-Hobbit]

I wanted them all to find their own sweeties....except for Legolas, i picture him a ramblin' ladies man....you know the love 'em and leave 'em sighing after you type.
As for falling in love with ME: give me a hobbit, any hobbit. My favorite has always been Merry, but if it's under four feet tall, has hairy feet and smokes a pipe then I'm all for it!

[Lush]

As an addendum to my previous posts on this thread-The best possible couple in LotR would have been Glorfindel and...me. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
He has tackled a Balrog and the Nine, now let him try a tempramental Russian. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]
Sorry, sorry, didn't mean to break the spell!

[Kalimac]

Oh Lush, poor Glorfindel - fearsome as the Nazgul were, still, against a temperamental Slav... he'd be ordering twenty-cask crates of the wines of Dorwinion before too long, wouldn't he?

And the more I think about it - as good as it would have been for Frodo to "find someone" as they put it, she would have had to be a very resilient and even-tempered someone. He would have been very difficult to live with, just as a result of all that agony. It would be a remarkable hobbit-maid who could begin to understand what had happened to his mind - if your idea of the world turned upside down is Sharkey's Men closing the Green Dragon, how could you begin to comprehend Mount Doom?

[Lush]

he'd be ordering twenty-cask crates of the wines of Dorwinion before too long, wouldn't he?

Yes, and I would drink half of them before he can blink his pretty Elven eyes. [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img]
As for Frodo, the way I look at it, I don't think he was meant to experience romance in his life, as sad as that may sound. He had a different mission to fullfill than marriage, babies, etc.
Also (Frodo-lovers, do not bludgeon me with your beer-mugs just yet for the comment I am about to make), it may be that due to the fact that Frodo essentially failed on Mt. Doom, at the very end of his quest, he was not permitted to enjoy the fruits of his labours (i.e. a girlfriend, wife, however you want to look at it) in the Shire. As much as I love Frodo, and as much as I pity him for all that he suffered, I believe that once he put that Ring on his finger for the last time, he doomed himself to misery in Middle Earth. Does that make him a bad Hobbit? No. But his fate and judgement are obviously more complex than that of someone like Sam, who, before journeying across the Sea was still permitted to find joy in his beloved Shire, marry his sweetheart, have babies, watch them grow, all that good stuff.

[ March 29, 2002: Message edited by: Lush ]

[Airedae]

Lush,

As sad as the truth is, you are right about frodo. He did trade everything that could of fulfilled a person for that one moment on Mount Doom. It happens in reality too...many people do things that result in them losing the ones they love. its the payment for the heavy burdened decision that one makes in those situations. And in those decisions, we always lose the things we love the most, thats the torture of it all. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Frodo gave up everything because of that decision. What was sadder is that he really had no choice in the matter, his heart was lost in Mordor..he traded his soul in a sense. Claiming such a thing would never of allowed him to live a normal life. the power of the ring would eventually destroy all of his loved ones and everything he held dear to him. he claimed it and that doomed his soul in middle earth. atleast he was allowed to travel to the undying lands to live the only life he could. atleast he was allowed some kind of life. for frodo dying in the end would of just been terrible. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] I often wonder how different the story would of been if frodo had been the one to diminish with the ring at the end instead of gollum...thats a thought i often have. i hope all that made sense. i tend to ramble alot.... [img]smilies/redface.gif[/img]

[Nevtalathiel]

But if Frodo fell into Mount Doom with the ring, what would have happened to Gollum???

[Maikadilwen]

And what would have become of Sam?

[Lush]

He didn't have to fall in with the Ring to save the world. He just had to throw the durn thing! Easier said than done, though.

[Child of the 7th Age]

I have no doubt that if Frodo had lept into the cavern, Gollum would have been one step behind him. Fortuntely, that did not happen.

Now about what Lush and Valerie said....I promise not to bludgeon you with a beer mug! After all, I might lose the beer inside and no self-respecting hobbit would do that. I definitely agree with you that what happened on Mount Doom meant Frodo would never have the joy of Shire or family. But I think another point deserves emphasis: Frodo had absolutely no choice in his inability to throw away the Ring of his own free will. He had exercised free will in his decision to take on that burden initially, but the burden itself was so heavy that, by definition, no mortal being (or for that matter no immortal elf) could succeed in voluntarily disposing of it. Tolkien says this very clearly in several of his letters: "If you re-read all the passages dealing with Frodo and the Ring, I think you will see that not only was it quite impossible for him to surrender the Ring, in act or will, especially at the point of its maximum power, but that that failure was adumbrated far back." (Letter 191) Tolkien also stated that Frodo had done "all that was within his utmost physical and mental strength to do." Letter 181 describes Frodo as being in "an apparently complete trap" so that "the Quest was bound to fail."

All this reflects Tolkien's views on humanity. He believed that, as finite creatures, we can be placed in situations simply beyond our power. Grace or deliverence must come from outside of ourselves. And this is exactly what happened to Frodo. Frodo never lied about what happened at Mount Doom. He never tried to pretend he had done something he had not. Externally, at least, he accepted his fate. (Internally was another matter which is why he needed the Blessed Lands.)

A number of posters on various threads have wondered whether someone else, perhaps another hobbit, would have been able to "succeed" where Frodo "failed",or at least not to have been so filled with fear and depression as Frodo was. But this is fallacious. There was no possibility of success in this enterprise since no created being is perfect, and only a perfect being could have "suceeded".

Some have suggested Sam might have held up better, noting that he was able to carry the Ring a brief time without lasting adverse effects. Moreover, Sam did return to build a life and family in the Shire. This comparison, however, breaks down. Sam's guardianship of the Ring was nowhere near the extended period that Frodo struggled with his burden. More importantly, without Frodo's gentle guidance, would Sam have let Gollum live? I doubt it. Sam had many wonderful characteristics, but he could be stubborn and short sighted. I think Gollum would have met a different fate under Sam the Ringbearer. And the whole key to this tangled web of imperfection was Gollum: the pity and forgiveness of injury shown first by Frodo and later by Sam at Frodo's urging made possible the redemption of the world.

Finally, Gandalf states Frodo was chosen for this task and, since Gandalf is a maia, the inference is that the One is behind this designation. Surely, in the context of Tolkien's universe, Eru would have designated that creature who, however weak and imperfect, was somehow best suited to be his instrument.

So, on one level, Sam did not "merit" the wonderful reward of a wife and children any more than Frodo "merited" his separation from the Shire and the lack of a loving family. They were both imperfect creatures in an impossible situation who struggled and did their assigned tasks to the best of their abilities. The gifts they received at the end of their struggle--the one with the richness of the Shire, and the other with Grey Havens--were suited to their nature and needs. Frodo, the Elf-friend, found his reward not in a soul mate, but in the peace of Tol Eressa and, one hopes at some later date, in the final, perfect resolution beyond the circles of the world. sharon

[Birdland]

...without Frodo's gentle guidance, would Sam have let Gollum live?

Chile' O' the 7th Age - Dang! I love your posts!

Regarding the above quote: that's an angle I had never considered before. I had always cast Sam in the same light of many of the "good ol' boy" Midwestern males I grew up with: having an inate, gentle nature that they try to hide from others in fear of being considered a "wimp".

So I would dismiss Sam's threats to end Gollum's life as so much bluster. I just didn't think he had it in him to kill without an extraordinarily good reason. And he certainly would have never struck someone down in the "heat of the moment".

I never thought about how much Sam would take the lessons of Frodo (and Gandalf) to heart. Silly of me, really: one doesn't inspire such respect and love in a person just by being a "good employer". Perhaps Frodo is the father Sam wishes he had always had.

For good or ill, Merry and Pippin seemed to have found their own father-figures in Boromir and Aragorn. Merry says: "You won't rescue...the Shire, just by being shocked and sad, my dear Frodo." This, to me, has always been one of the saddest lines in the story. It represents not only the loss of innocence in the younger Hobbits, but also a complete misreading of Frodo's mind set! Frodo resists to the end the shedding of blood in the Shire not out of fear or timidity, but because he knows killing without thought is an action that can never be recalled, and can lead to disasterous consequences.

Had Merry or Pippin been at the Cracks of Doom, after surviving the siege of Gondor and the Pelennor Fields, the choice to slay Gollum would have been patently obvious to them. And completely wrong.

(Sorry this post has nothing to do with anyone falling in love. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] )

[ April 02, 2002: Message edited by: Birdland ]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Birdland-- Thanks for the kudos. No, your post didn't touch on anyone falling in love, but it did say a lot about another kind of love--that between father and son. I've never thought of Frodo as a father figure for Sam, "the father he wished he had", but there may be a lot of truth in that. Frodo was, I believe, eleven years older than Sam. Moreover, it definitely sounds like Bilbo once played that role--teaching Sam about elves and such--and maybe Frodo "inherited" some of that same role after Bilbo left the Shire, and the Gollum situation was just one example of that. It would be interesting to look closely at the dialogue between the two and see if there are any other hints of that in the story. sharon

[Airedae]

Sharon, Thanx for your wonderful post. I always enjoy what you have to say. Actually, to be honest, i often ask questions in hopes that you will answer or give your opinions..hehe...i think i understand things and then i hear the way you put things and i understand them in a totally different way. its good to put the pieces together to this wonder story. i agree with everything you said. You are right, no one had the will to destroy it. No living thing could of. The One Ring was the deciding factor and it knew its own fate. I am sorry i asked the question about what would of happened if frodo had fell. I think i started something.lol...it was just something i wondered. i do agree that gollum would of went in after frodo, had frodo fell to his death in the cracks of doom. for his 'precious' was his life, his only reason for staying alive. without it, gollum would of not been able to live. he would of been stricken down with so much grief that his life would of ended soon after the ring was destroyed. It is an interesting thought about fate and how it applys even in our lives....its all the same. fate is written in stone. sometimes when i was reading things that gandalf said and i often wondered if he knew what was going to happen. maybe not but sometimes he sure acted as if he did. like he knew what was on the last page of a big book you are in. What do you say about gandalf and his comments on fate and this particuliar journey? Anybody want to elaborate? [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Child of the 7th Age]

Valerie--That's the great thing about the net. Everyone throws in their two cents and, in the end, you hopfully come out with something that is more insightful that what you would get sitting at home and thinking by yourself. To say nothing of the fact, that it is a lot more fun. Now the whole question of Gandalf and fate is far afield from characters falling in love, but it's also very tempting to try and respond. And I'll stick in something at the end, (anything?) to tie it in somehow with the thread.

I haven't thought a lot about this subject, but I'd have to say it is complex and, on a certain level, unknowable. There are a number of different forces coming to play here. First of all, you can definitely go through the book and find instances where Gandalf seems to have a pretty good idea of what will or might(the two are not identical) happen next. A good transparent one familiar to us all is how Gandalf responded as the company entered the mountain to face the perils of the mines of Moria. He clearly had some foreknowledge (and perhaps Aragorn too?) of the problems they would encounter. But you can also find other instances in the story where Gandalf seemingly has little idea how something might turn out. I think the truth is somewhere in the middle, and there may be many reasons for this.

I do believe that, as a Maia, Gandalf had access to information that no one else in Middle-Earth has. On a personal level, I am reminded of the cryptic moment when he made a brief allusion to the fact that he knew something about the origin of the hobbits, a topic which is never discussed by Tolkien anywhere else. Then, much to my frustration, Gandalf never elaborates further on this mysterious glimmer so we do not find out whether the hobbits are simply a sub-plot of Man's creation, or whether there is actually a separate story of origin for hobbits as members of the human race but as a branch subtly separate and distinct from Man. So Gandalf does have sources of information which he sometimes reveals to us and sometimes doesn't. This can look an awful lot like "knowing Fate" but really it is only knowing more background information than the other beings around you, and being able to make wise guesses about what's likely to happen.

Secondly, Tolkien is quite clear in his writing that the characters in his book have freedom of choice, not complete freedom but the freedom to determine which path they will go on. This is part of his belief as a Christian and a Catholic, and I feel it was at the core of his being and writing. Frodo could have said no to carrying the Ring. Gandalf truly couldn't say with certainty ahead of time what Frodo's answer would be. He might understand Frodo enough to have a strong idea of what he might do, but that is not the same thing as Fate or knowing something with certainty. Didn't Gandalf say you could study hobbits for a hundred years, and still find that you had much more to learn? If Fate had been all encompassing, there would have been no reason to study hobbits in this way since there would be no possibility of different responses by Frodo or anyone else, at least not in significant situations.

What's interesting is that this view has little in common with Tolken's training as a specialist in ancient northern mythology. In the ancient lays of Finland and Iceland, there is no question that things are determined by Fate. There is always one or more goddess figures who weave the marvelous web and determine what will happen to Man before it actually occurs. Again, Tolkien made a point to differentiate his world from this fatalistic view. Vaire the Weaver who dwells in the halls of Mandos only puts in her web that which has already occurred. So again, there have to be limitations on what Gandalf can possibly forsee.

Finally, there is the whole question of the role which Gandalf played when he is placed in an incarnate body and sent to Middle Earth in the Third Age. According to Tolkien's Letters, Gandalf is under the distinct obligation of concealing his power and teaching those around him rather than forcing or dominating wills as he easily might have done. This, indeed, is the path that Sauron the maia took. Now it is true that, after his battle with the Balrog, he returns with seemingly augmented instructions. He is now allowed to do things he wasn't permitted before. Tolkien says that this is because Gandalf was first sent out under the plan of the Valar, but "that Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure." Even with this seeming expansion of instrucions, Gandalf continues to operate mainly through others. He does do a few things--rescuing Faramir and guarding the entrance to Minas Tirith against the Nazgul--but the focus of activity is on the company and assemblage as a whole. Given this focus and the extent to which Gandalf purposely minimizes his personal role, how can he possibly control Fate in the same manner as an ancient Norse god?

Finally, all through the early Silmarillion, it is made quite clear that each of the Valar know only a tiny part of Eru's mind and song. And Gandalf was not one of the Valar, but only a Maia. So, although he appears to us mortals as an incredibly important personage, in the total picture and hierarchy of Eru, he is one of many and would only know a small glimmering of the mind of the One.

Finally, I would say that perhaps we are using the wrong terminology in this situation. When we describe foreknowing in Tolkien's writings, perhaps the word that we want is not "fate" but "providence". Gandalf certainly knew more than others about what might happen. And I definitely prefer "might" to "would". Gandalf's role was to interpret providence to the characters of Middle-earth, to the extent that these characters were able to understand and internalize his values. He did this, for example, in his conversations with Frodo about pity and mercy, an idea which crept slowly but steadily into Frodo's thoughts and heart not just in relation to Gollum but even at the end of the telling in the scouring of the Shire.

So I think the true answer to your post is a little yes, but mostly no. Gandalf certainly knew more than Aragorn or Frodo or even Galadriel, but that something was a tiny drop in the ocean of reality.

And how does this all tie in with getting Gandalf paired up with a soul mate? I would say that it is great fun to conjecture how singles like Gandalf and Frodo could end up with the mate of their dreams. But, in reality, those who are chosen as instruments by the Valar, or even more by Eru, have a terribly serious task at hand, involving their whole core and being. I truly believe that, for such individuals, there is too much to focus on, to much to give up and to sacrifice, and that the sweet loving family, by which I measure my own happiness, does not lie within their embrace.

This is why, on a certain level, I may get exasperated with fan fiction that insists on giving Frodo a wife and/or children or somehow sending him back to the Shire from Tol Eressa. I feel that it trivializes his contribution and sacrifice, and takes it down to a level which might feel more comfortable for me. However, I don't read Tolkien to feel comfortable or to go down a level. I would rather have both the joy and sadness there because that is just the way Life is, not only in the Third Age but also in the troubled world in which we live. sharon, the 7th age hobbit

[Lothiriel Silmarien]

Ok, I definetly agree with the person who said that Arwen wasn't for Aragorn. That is a lot of pressure on the guy! And second, when you read the book you get really close to the characters. And well, Aragorn was supposed to be this really hot guy. That's the message that I got from Tolkien, I just twisted around his words and made them sound like someone saying that today. I never liked the idea of these characters falling in love. Like why does Arwen get the hot guy! And why does Eomer get married too! I'm happy Legolas didn't though!But if I had to pick Aragorn with someone, that he obviously could be with, I would choose Eowyn cuz she's better for him than Arwen. But Faramir and Eowyn make a pretty good couple too. mailto:Marie385@aol.comMarie385@aol.com</A> Peter Jackson is an amazing director. The movie was great-the beautiful scenery, the script, and he picked just the perfect actors for the parts. They all are extremely talented, and not to mention REALLY hot!

Although I'm one of those people who wished Frodo should have had a lady I can easily understand why he didn't.
Everything in life has a reason and there were millions of reason for why Frodo was the ringbearer. One of them being that he was an orphan and a bachelor so he didn't have parents or a girl who would be upset about what he went through and when he left.
This is probably why Frodo seems to have grown away from Merry and Pip at the end and why them two spent so much time getting closer to each other.
The only people he is very much attached to are Bilbo,Sam and Gandalf who he lives with in the undying lands anyway. Frodo was most likely healed there like Elrond's wife was and if you think about it, his sacrifice was good for him in the long run. He was allowed to live in the undying lands, the most beautiful place, with his loved ones among the most beautiful race. I think he got his just reward like going to heaven and when he finally died there I like to believe he went to heaven and met up with his parents etc and later on with all his friends when they died.
It's the tragedy that the Valar don't know what happens when mortals die that add to the emotion in the stories and also to the big sacrifice Arwen makes. But since it was once called the 'gift' of man I'm guessing it does imply a heaven.
Well as I said before, everything happens for a reason and in the end you get rewarded for the good you do, even if you get it not in this world but in the hereafter.

By the way, Eomer had to get married cos he was King and needed an heir! He couldn't have left the kingdon to Eowyn's son either cos he'd be the Prince of Ithilien.

[Atariel]

what i want to know is: why, in a culture where men are the pre-eminent sex, and when they aren't really afraid to show their emotions (for example, the blokes in Gondor kiss each other as a farewell), are there no gay men, hobbits or elves? wouldn't it be cool if Legolas and Gimli were gay lovers? okay, that's highly inappropriate becuase tolkien was a genius, and an intellectual, and probably one of the best men to ever live- (why isn't he on the Top Briton list?)- so a tough of homophobia is nothing to worry about.

[Lindril Arvilya]

This is about the part before the gay lovers bit, about Frodo and his loss of happiness.

How odd.... and yet not. It's a common enough recurrence, I guess, as it's happened to me myself. I had the chance to have happiness and love, boyfriend who cared etc.... and then who gave in to the temptation of evil and lost the chance? *sigh* I sympathise.... poor Frodo.... I know how you feel.
Hmmm..... does that mean we'd be a good match?

[Rynoah, the Overly-Happy]

But Boromir, Boromir almost needed to fall in love. He was headstrong and cocky, and needed to calm down just a bit. Had he fallen in love, maybe his mindset would have changed to be not unalike to Aragorn's. Maybe he got lots of women at home thrown at him also, but he never did know what it was like. Then he wouldn't have died and things may have gone better. But alas...

That pretty much sums up what I was thinking (oh, come on! You can't actually say you didn't see that coming from me!) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

I have actually read (and even written!) a fanfiction concerning Boromir not really dying and a woman finding his body not long after he was shot and nursing him back to health. I think there was one where he had amnesia, so he just ended up living quietly somewhere in Middle-Earth. Really good. I wish I could find it again.

[GlingleglingleglingleFairy]

I really wanted Aragorn and Eowyn to end up together, Arwen shouldn't be with him because in the book there's no real sense of love between them, no chemistry. Ok she dies for him but it seems to me that there's nothing real about their love. You could never imagine Arwen doing his laundry or other wife-ish things, and it all seems to be too perfect and almost superficial, anyone can die for someone but its harder to live.

[StarJewel]

Personality wise, Eowyn and Aragorn were very well suited to each other. Eowyn could fight, and when she did, she kicked butt! I just cant picture Arwen in a fight. She's too, well, girlie.

And, I know, this next guy is not from LotR. I would have loved to see Beleg find a girlfriend/wife. He was such a sweetie, and wise as well. I would have dated him in a heartbeat [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

[Imladris]

No, Eowyn and Faramir were perfect for each other. Even though two may be suited for each other doesn't mean they love each other. Arwen was Aragorn's, Aragorn was Arwen's. They loved each other so much. For myself, I was thrilled when Eowyne fell in love with Faramir and I just love the part where they kiss in public (the movie better have that part in there...). I always thought that Legolas should marry a half-elven girl who was wild and free. I was so excited when I read in ROTK that Legolas and Gimli crossed the sea together.

[Estella Brandybuck]

Very interesting topic. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

No, Eowyn and Faramir were perfect for each other. Even though two may be suited for each other doesn't mean they love each other. Arwen was Aragorn's, Aragorn was Arwen's. They loved each other so much. For myself, I was thrilled when Eowyne fell in love with Faramir and I just love the part where they kiss in public (the movie better have that part in there...).

Ahh, my thoughts exactly. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] I like what someone said earlier about Aragorn and Arwen's love being "written in the stars." It's destined, it's tragic, it's beautiful. Yes, Aragorn and Éowyn did have a lot in common, but we all know that she only loved him for what he represented - "and as a great captian may to a young soldier he seemed to you admirable." I can't imagine Éowyn being with anyone but Faramir. It's like... well, the way I see it, he helped to bring her out of the darkness, his compassion giving her more inner strength and stability, allowing her to realize that she could fall in love again and that she had fallen in love again, and this time it was real.

Not sure if that made sense, but hey, most of my opinions don't. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

As for Frodo... of course, he wouldn't have been nearly as tragic if he had fallen in love and gotten married. Or maybe he would have, if he still couldn't stay in Middle-earth despite that love, which would be even more heartbreaking, in my opinion. But I don't think he really needed to have a wife. After all, Bilbo was a bachelor, and he turned out just fine (more or less [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )!

As for Sam and Frodo in a romantic relationship... I just think Sam and Rosie make a cuter couple. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] And it's like what Rosa Underhill said on the previous page:

Eh, it never would've worked out between Sam and Frodo. As my friend so eloquently put it when we were talking about Sam's kids: "He must've been busy (to have that many kids) and it wasn't with Frodo!"

Hehe, that's what I keep telling everyone!

[Imladris]

I don't think either of them married, and then they both sailed West together, right? I loved that, and I have a really touching fic about their time in Valinor. Wait, let me get the link. Ah! Here it is! This fic is SO SO SO Sad!! Beware, major angst alert.

Oh! That story is so sad! I cried, and I've only read the first chapter. I think you portrayed Legolas very well. I know this off-topic, but I just wanted to mention it.

[Lyta_Underhill]

I must say I enjoyed the Frodo analysis earlier in this thread quite a lot, but I always do! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] A lot of people seem to think he lost out or was somehow unfulfilled simply for the lack of a life mate, but I cannot agree. Even before the Quest, he seemed constitutionally unsuited for it. He was 50 and living alone with his gardener! I can't see him changing that aspect of his life! No, Frodo was meant to follow in Bilbo's footsteps where lifestyle was concerned, and Bilbo got on just fine being a lifelong bachelor! He found his fulfillment in other things. And while Frodo enjoyed being "The Baggins" of Bag End, he never once entertained the idea of having a Mrs. Baggins. This is as it should be, and I don't see any pain arising from it. He had Sam and he had his younger Shire friends, Merry, Pippin and others as well! Even had he never gone on the quest, he would have been just fine without a wife/girlfriend! The only disquiet I can sense in the pre-Quest Frodo is the same curiousity and sense of adventure that Bilbo had awakened in him from his "Tookish" side. He refused to limit his vision to the Shire, although he loved it. I think it was an easy step for him to take to go away from it for a while (not taking into consideration the import of the quest, but simply the physical act of leaving), but he could never have foreseen how complete that break would be!

Now for something completely different! I always wanted Maedhros and Maglor to find love! For that matter, any of the Sons of Fëanor! They seemed to have such a cursed existence ever since that ill-advised Oath! As awful as Curufin, Caranthir and Celegorm were to the other residents of Beleriand, could they have been better with another focus besides that cursed Oath of Fëanor dogging them? I didn't get the sense that they did anything besides embrace the Oath and its implications, but would they have gone on a different path if it had not been for that Oath? I would like to have seen more descendants of Fëanor, instead of the mere one (Celebrimbor) who came to a sticky end...albeit his creations and their consequences rocked the Third Age!

Cheers,
Lyta

[Guinevere]

I quite agree with your analysis of Frodo, Lyta! Very well written!
I've read this whole thread (why haven't I come across it last summer??) and enjoyed especially the contributions of Child of the 7th age. (Reminds me of the great old thread in books: "Frodo's sacrifice")

Anyhow, Frodo could never have found a soul-mate in the Shire. Even before the quest he said to Gandalf:

... there have been times when I thought the inhabitants (of the Shire) too stupid and dull for words, and have felt that an earthquake or an invasion of dragons might be good for them.

and after the quest he was too rarified and ennobled to go on living there, with noone really understanding him. Not even his faithful and adoring Sam understood him fully, they just weren't on the same level. (But I did feel sorry that Frodo kept all his pain and selfreproaches to himself. I guess he didn't want to burden Sam with it, but it might have done him good to be able to pour his heart out and "lay back in the arms of someone he loved"!)

Like many of you, I also was very disappointed, that the Entwives didn't turn up again. (I had rather been sure some would be found in or near the Shire..
[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] )
And I was sooo glad Eowyn found Faramir. She was really lucky to get him! (I have almost a crush on him myself... [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] (I mean the real, the book-Faramir, of course, and not that impostor in the movie)
Aragorn becomes towards the end more and more a superhuman, mythical hero, far above Eowyn. She had more a kind of hero-worship for him, I think.

About Legolas: he's really mysterious, isn't he. We know nothing about his past, about his thoughts and feelings. Which leaves of course ample space for wild speculations and fanfics... [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] But I personally can't see him falling in love.

Are there any "love-stories" between Elves in the books at all?? Somehow I only remember Elf-maidens falling in love with Men! (Luthien, Arwen, Idril, Finduilas and Nellas)


About Maedhros and Maglor: I felt very sorry for them too, but I think they were too preoccupied with their diastrous oath and making war, to have any thoughts for love.
Even Finrod had preferred leaving for Beleriand to staying with his love in Aman... At least I hope (as others have written) that he would find his Amarië waiting for him whe he returned from the halls of Mandos! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Who was Curufin's wife,(Celebrimbor's mother)? Is she even mentioned anywhere??