I now pronounce you Dwarf & Hobbit...oops!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

And one could equally argue - if one accepted that M-e was intended to be our world in some ancient epoch, that homosexuality didn't exist at that time & arose later.

One could, but not particularly convincingly.

Originally Posted by davem

Either that, or he created a world where homosexuals were ostracised or had to lie about their true nature.

Given that these events are recorded primarily by Hobbits and given the 'model' used for Hobbit society, that is quite possible. It is, however, not the only alternative. Indeed, the more likely explanation, as others have noted, is that it was not mentioned because it was simply not relevant to the story.

Originally Posted by davem

I could list a whole lot of things that I would have no problem existing in M-e, but that doesn't tell us anything about whether they did exist there or not.

But, as you have pointed out on a number of occasions, M-e is a fictional world. Nothing exists there save in the imagination of the author and the reader. And we have little, if any, evidence of authorial intent on this matter.

[davem]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

Given that these events are recorded primarily by Hobbits and given the 'model' used for Hobbit society, that is quite possible. It is, however, not the only alternative. Indeed, the more likely explanation, as others have noted, is that it was not mentioned because it was simply not relevant to the story.

Well, only TH & LotR (& not the whole of that) was recorded by Hobbits. Much of the rest was recorded by Elves & Men & only translated by Bilbo, & some was added to the Red Book by later scribes like Findegil. It still strikes me that the least difficult (in more ways than the obvious one) opition is to assume that Tolkien did not conceive of homosexuality existing in M-e.

I think we've agreed that, given the nature of Elvish sexuality, homosexuality did not exist among Elves. If we accept your argument re Hobbits, its clear that either homosexuality did not exist in their society - or it was not something that was acceptable, & thus we introduce into Tolkien's rural idyll the concept of gay Hobbits having to remain in the closet, & not admit the truth about their sexuality.

We still end up with gays in M-e living a lie & existing a second class citizens - because if they weren't, if homosexuality was 'acceptable' then it would have been mentioned - if only in passing. It depends really on whether one wants to introduce (or I'd say invent without a shred of supporting evidence) that whole new level of lying, hiding, ostracism, persecution, denial & general burying ones' head in the sand among all the races of M-e. Personally, I find that way too much hassle...

[Anguirel]

davem old fruit (no slander intended) I think you were exactly right to question the logic of gamers warping Middle-earth to advance a 21st century truism, the equal status of homosexuality. However, I think you're falling into a similar kind of historical trap yourself.

You're saying that Tolkien probably didn't intend his world to include homosexuality, and that that means homosexuality probably doesn't exist in Middle-earth. Not from a historian or a critic's point of view, it doesn't.

We're in a misleading zone already to talk about "homosexuality" as if it were a clear, uncomplicated subject. As you of course know that word is an ugly 19th century neologism. I shall refer to another ugly 19th century truism, homoeroticism, because it can't be turned into a noun/identity like "homosexual", and because "sodomy", the most contemporary and picturesque word, is probably slightly offensive.

Homoeroticism was not, in the mythic tales which influenced Tolkien - I'm thinking Homer especially, a less major influence but the one I know more about - a standard for a tribe. It was a pleasure/vice. Homoerotic activities did not turn one into a minority member repressing a dark side. It was part of the character and personality, the heroism or tyranny of whatever individual possessed it, like alcoholism, excessive anger, piety, beauty.

Because Tolkien draws on ancient themes, he inevitably invokes some of the homoeroticism of the ancients. Think of Maedhros and Fingon and the general fan reaction. Anachronistic, probably. Totally mistaken, probably not. The pair seem like the warrior and the youth of Classical legend, Achilles/Patroclus, Aeneas/Pallas. Make of that what you will - and many fans have. Whatever Tolkien thought, his motifs hark back to what Iris Murdoch jokily called "the excesses of the ancients".

And with the reader lies the power. If a reader thinks Maedhros homoerotic (the word "gay" certainly does not apply!), it shows perception of a sort, to look beyond the apparently clean Northern conventions and see an older past. Ditto, it must be said, Frodo/Sam.

Whether in the guise of angry Judaeo-Christian notions of sin, or heroic Classical notions of warrior love, (or heroic J-C or angry Classical, of course: David and Jonathan) homoeroticism is about in Tolkien, in both good and bad characters, and to deny its interpretation is as absurd as to say that no debt is owed by Tolkien to, say courtly love. I played a Lord of Umbar who was clearly pretty interested in chasing young male musicians in a RP a while ago, and I felt no contradiction with Tolkien's world, if some with the world the man himself might have envisaged.

In fact, I think a homoerotic character with a proper Sindarin name would be more in keeping with Middle-earth than a heterosexual character called James. That's how minor an obstacle it seems to me.

[davem]

Yet sex for pleasure, whether hetero- or homo- is clearly not something Elves go in forvery much. Sex, from the Elvish perspective, is for procreation, & once pro-creation has occurred sex does not - & most Elves restrict themselves to one or two children. Of course, one could argue that Tolkien's views changed over the years, but LaCE must be taken as his final word - not simply because it reflects his latest thoughts (& I accept the argument that with Tolkien Latest does not = final), but because its basically the only thing he wrote regarding Elvish sexuality). With Men in Tolkien's world this may or may not be the case.

I've suggested that it may be possible to see a homoerotic dimension to Sam & Frodo's relationship - in the extreme situation they find themselves in at the latter end of the Quest. Yet, even if one reads it that way Tolkien (& Sam) is clear that 'it is not allowed'.

I can also see that Tolkien is drawing on earlier traditions in which homo-eroticism was almost a commonplace, & that its possible to interpret some characters as having that kind of relationship.

I have to be clear here. I wouldn't have a problem with homo-erotic, or even outright homosexual relationships in Tolkien's world. In fact, I think they would add an extra 'depth' in some cases. Such a relationship between, say, Turin & Beleg, would deepen the horror & tragedy of the former's killing of the latter, & I suppose some readers interpret the relationship in that way. I just don't see any evidence that Tolkien saw, or intended the relationship to have that aspect (not least because Beleg was an Elf, & according to LaCE, for Elves the sexual act was synonymous with marriage & was intended to produce children).

I also have to re-state my position that there is no example of a homosexual relationship in any of Tolkien's writings, or any reference to one, or any relationship which is described in sufficiently ambiguous terms for us to be able to interpret it that way.

The fact that the traditions Tolkien drew on included homoerotic relationships can't be used as 'evidence' for homoerotic relationships in Tolkien's writings either - Tolkien didn;t simply 'lift' anything lock, stock & barrel from the sources he drew from. Of course he would have been aware of that aspect, but that doesn't mean he brought it over. If he had, it would have been more clearly expressed. Sexuality, when it appears, or is discussed, is hetero.

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by davem

Yet sex for pleasure, whether hetero- or homo- is clearly not something Elves go in forvery much. Sex, from the Elvish perspective, is for procreation, & once pro-creation has occurred sex does not - & most Elves restrict themselves to one or two children. Of course, one could argue that Tolkien's views changed over the years, but LaCE must be taken as his final word - not simply because it reflects his latest thoughts (& I accept the argument that with Tolkien Latest does not = final), but because its basically the only thing he wrote regarding Elvish sexuality). .

Yes but LaCE does say that they enjoy it a lot while it lasts ... and of course there is the more "real" nature of Elvish memory *ahem* ..guess it is hard to keep the magic alive after the first few centuries....