I now pronounce you Dwarf & Hobbit...oops!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by davem

At some point, simply allowwing everything which is logically possible will completely transform Tolkien's world into a Warcraft clone.

My point was that anything which is logically possible should be permissible, but subject to it being credible within the bounds of the world that Tolkien presented us with (hence, Dwarf-Hobbit marriages would be possible in theory, but extremely rare in practice). Although I cannot imagine how such a "rule" could be enforced that in a game such as this.

Originally Posted by davem

... to enter M-e with the attitudes, values & sensibilities of a twentieth century person is to change it. One has to adopt a certain mindset, behave & think in a certain way, or one is going to destroy the world.

Then again, values, sensibilities and "moral compasses" may have changed, but that does not mean that things which are acceptable now but which were once frowned upon did not previously exist. And how can someone "change their mindset" with regard to a fundamental aspect of who they are (eg, sexuality)?

[the guy who be short]

To what extent did Hobbits, Elves, Men & Dwarves even have love marriages? Love marriages only became common in the West in the 1700s. It seems sensible that parents had a role - look at Elrond guarding Arwen.

Anyway, I agree with SpM that anything sensible should be included - termites, going to the toilet (sorry, loo!), homosexuality - while anything not sensible should be excluded - inter-racial marriage (except man-elf), flight of hobbits and gay marriage. Homosexuality has always existed; it has rarely been formalised.

Marriage is an odd issue because very little is said about it. Most societies in history seem to have gone for parents arranging marriages which can't be extended to a game world.

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

Most societies in history seem to have gone for parents arranging marriages which can't be extended to a game world.

Why not? I know of few greater novels, after all, than A Suitable Boy. And my current RP is positively teeming with arranged marriages...

[Lalwendë]

I think the primary issue is that it is a game and what's more, a game which allows players to creatively interact rather like The Sims. If you want the 'authentic Tolkien' you need go no further than a good old book, a game is never going to give you that experience, not least as it will impose on you one 'vision' of the world you are reading about and not allow you to create it for yourself.

However, what is to stop the reader from imagining all kinds of scenarios involving the characters? In fact they do, you only have to look at slash to see that people will and do put say Legolas in a clinch with Aragorn Those scenarios spring from readers' minds - yet you get few imagined scenarios involving something else 'not mentioned' - flying Elves. Why should readers of books be allowed to have scenarios they like in their own imaginations yet gamers should not?

Maybe the difference is that other gamers would not like to share the virtual Middle-earth with the imaginings of these fans? Do we then have to deal with the prospect of a schism and two parallel Middle-earths?

[The Might]

Interesting topic there
And personally if I were a player there, which I am not, I would definitely like to live in a world as close to Tolkien's M-e as possible
I wouldn't want to see neither gay Elves nor Hobbits married with Dwarves, no matter if the players want that or not
The game, in my opinion, should have certain rules that keep it within the boundaries set by Tolkien
The problem is, this is just my opinion and after all it doesn't really count a lot
The purpose of the game is to make money and I'm sure if enough people request new rules to enable such things, this will be granted...
In the end, I don't really care, I never really liked MMORPG anyway

[Durelin]

Geez, guys! Cut Turbine some slack... I don't think anyone here knows enough about the company to say that all the people care about is money.... And the issue here is not money - it's essentially politics, and the personal feelings of the people in the company.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Durelin

Geez, guys! Cut Turbine some slack... I don't think anyone here knows enough about the company to say that all the people care about is money.... And the issue here is not money - it's essentially politics, and the personal feelings of the people in the company.

I suspect money is the over-riding issue - they snapped up the rights in order to make money. And the money they're making is off the back of Tolkien's hard work over more than half a century. If this was a generic fantasy world no-one would be that interested in getting involved. This is about getting fans of the books & the movie on line - & shelling out money to Turbine for the privilege. I suspect that 'politics' is only an issue because Turbine realise that whichever way they jump they'll alienate some players, & they're trying to find a way to stay on the fence if they can, & keep as many on board as possible.

I suspect where politics is an issue is for some of those objecting to the ban on same sex marriages in the game - who seem to have little or no interest at all in Tolkien's creation, & the ethics & philosophy underlying it - & who are more interested in political correctness than in Tolkien's work.

Surely there comes a point when this M-e becomes simply another on-line fantasy world.

But, would that be a great loss? I wonder - if players were bound by the 'hard' rules Tolkien gave, would that not produce a much more interesting experience for the players?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

To what extent did Hobbits, Elves, Men & Dwarves even have love marriages? Love marriages only became common in the West in the 1700s. It seems sensible that parents had a role - look at Elrond guarding Arwen.
.

It states in LaCE that the Eldar married for love or at least of free will and that the future spouses chose each other but the parents did have some say in the timing of the wedding.

However the evidence points to a far greater degree of familial influence if you look at Thingol and Elrond's conditions on their daughter's marriages and Curufin's words to Eol "those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave do not gain kinship with their kin". The gift may refer simply to the "giving of a hand in marriage" but LaCE also says that the approval of the families is shown in the giving of a jewel to the new child-in-law and that though this was not essential to the validity of the marriage it was a grave insult to the families if these extra ceremonies were foregone other than in extreme circumstances. It also makes clear that Beren and Luthien could have married without Thingol's permission - it wouuld have been dishonourable not illegal.