Tolkien and Norse Mythology

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Now on a side note, completely un-Tolkien related - I find it interesting that Mistletoe is singled out not to harm Baldr and thus must ahve been significant to the ancient Norse, and the ancient British also revered the plant!

So significant across Europe that Robert Graves effectively wrote a whole book about it- check out The White Goddess. Most of it's actually a load of cobblers, but it's a fascinating read. And of course Frazer concluded that his Golden Bough at Nemi was mistletoe.

It's not hard to see why this odd little plant was accorded mystical significance, suspended between heaven and earth, being, in effect, neither fish nor flesh, neither wet nor dry- and its berries certainly call to mind semen, obviously freighted with meaning.

[tom bombariffic]

And once again, bombariffic chooses to reveal himself unlooked for and unexpected, probably not for long.

I think that Tolkien's Norse inheritence is mostly philological (language-based). As well as the dwarf names from Voluspa mentioned above, Frodo is clearly drawn from Old Norse Fróði, "the wise / the virile", drawn from Saxo Grammaticus, a common name for mythological Kings of Denmark.

Perhaps more interesting is "Saruman", a compound from the old english "Searu" and "Monn". The interesting thing about this name is that it reflects his character: "Searu" means both "skill" but also "deceit". ("monn" is "man".)

Similarly, "Smeagol" in Old English means "thoughtful" - perhaps suggesting the side of the character that can still control his mind.


There are so many parallels to Old Norse and Old English myths, and I don't have time to go on. However, one that people may like to check out is the Old Norse short story Þiðranda þáttr. Þiðrandi is attacked by nine mysterious black riders (in this context, representing the failing heathen religion). These riders are driven away by nine white riders from the south, (symbolic of Christianity). Aside from the obvious parallels to the ringwraiths and The White Rider, the idea of a changing world order is particularly poignant in both works.

Keep up the good work.

Hey dol! Merry dol! I'm off.

bombariffic
xx

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by tom bombariffic

Similarly, "Smeagol" in Old English means "thoughtful" -

No, it derives from smygen "to delve, burrow, creep into:" the same root from which JRRT also derived Smaug and Smial.

[tom bombariffic]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

No, it derives from smygen "to delve, burrow, creep into:" the same root from which JRRT also derived Smaug and Smial.

I'm sorry, I was slightly wrong, but I still don't think that you're right. What I should have said is that Smeagol comes from the Old English verb 'smeagan' - to think, ponder, or examine. This makes more sense for Gollum than 'to delve, burrow, creep', as after all Smeagol is what he was called before he retreated to the mountains.

The verb you are thinking of is the Old Norse verb 'smjúga', the past tense of which is 'smaug' - "he crept". This is presumably where the dragon's name came from.


As far as your next post goes, you're right to point that out, although perhaps it would be more accurate to say 'everybody loses'; the two sides destroy each other and the world ends. Although Baldr then comes back from hel at the dawn of a new world, so there is still some presence of the gods there.

bombariffic xx

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by tom bombariffic

I'm sorry, I was slightly wrong, but I still don't think that you're right. What I should have said is that Smeagol comes from the Old English verb 'smeagan' - to think, ponder, or examine. This makes more sense for Gollum than 'to delve, burrow, creep', as after all Smeagol is what he was called before he retreated to the mountains.

The verb you are thinking of is the Old Norse verb 'smjúga', the past tense of which is 'smaug' - "he crept". This is presumably where the dragon's name came from.

"Smial (or smile) 'burrow' is a likely form for a descendant of smygel, and represents well the relationship of Hobbit tran to R[ohirric] trahan. Smeagol and Deagol are equivalents made up in the same way for the names Trahald 'burrowing, worming in', and Nahald 'secret' in the Northern tongues." --Appendix F.II "On Translation."

Remember, even before the Ring, Smeagol "was interested in roots and beginnings," "burrowed under trees," and "tunnelled into green mounds."

Smaug is "the past tense of the primitive Germanic verb Smugan, to squeeze through a hole: a low philological jest." --Letter no. 25

[tom bombariffic]

Fair enough I suppose, if Tolkien said that about Smeagol, the linguistic approach has lead me astray. Interesting though, that the name he came up with sounds less like the word he derived it from than another word, which he would certianly have been aware of.

smugan is the Anglo Saxon rendition of the ON smjúga, so we're really arguing the same point on that one.

bombariffic

[Iarwain Ben-adar]

I have a thread in a different Tolkien Study Site that gpes nto comparisons with Different Mytholoiges to Tolkiens. I have only done 2 (Norse and Christian), and am working on Greek similariites. Just thouht you might want to know.
Here

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