I Found the Entwives!

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The way they crossed rivers was every bit as "magic" as their cloaks and boats and televisions.

The way that Haldir crossed the river had everything to do with his innate ability as an Elf (the abiity to walk across a single strand of rope) and nothing to do with any unusual quality of the rope itself. There was no need for him to reveal its auto-untie function (if indeed this rope shared the same quality as Sam's rope, which is not necessarily the case) because there were Elves on both sides of the river.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed.

Perhaps this particular quality of the rope only worked in certain circumstances and they did not want to raise the Fellowship's expectations. Sam was all but distraught at the thought of having to leave it behind, so perhaps that is the "trigger" that was required. Possibly, the Elves thought those of other races incapable of forming such a bond with an Elven artifact such as to trigger its capabilities in this regard. In any event, while seemingly at odds with the manner in which most of the other gifts were handed over, this point by no means precludes the possibility that the rope had auto-untying capability.

Well, of course. If something in the passage could "specifically relate to Entwives" we wouldn't have this thread, would we? The answer would be settled.

I agree. But if you would care to refer back to the passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit quoted by Ardamir, you will see that (as noted in my post #70) there is far more in that passage which might be interpreted as subtle references to the Entwives than in the passage to which you are precariously clinging.

Woah! Stop right there. No need to go further. You made my point for me. "Tolkien points out"!

You are of course conveniently overlooking the hint that Tolkien gives us as to the rope's capability. When Sam's gentle tug brings the rope down and Frodo attributes this either to the inadequacy of Sam's knot or the rope breaking, Sam says:

"... but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.”

Case closed.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by TT, The Taming of Sméagol

He stroked the rope's end and shook it gently. `It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel,' he murmured nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell. To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.

I think you're both overlooking something very important here. There was a trigger, a "magic word", if you will. The rope was called, using the name if its maker, and it responded. Obviously, the word "Galadriel" has magical properties, and invoking it over the rope was the key, the trigger, by which the bearer could activate the "loosening mode". Something akin to a password. Sam says "Galadriel" and pulls the rope -- the knot falls away. Seems clear enough to me.

In a more serious vein, I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. I think of "magic" as almost synonymous with "miracle". C.S. Lewis defined miracles (I'm paraphrasing) as displays of supernatural power which supercede the ordinary laws of physics. I think what TP is attempting to assert (though I'm open to correction)is that what some people call "magic" is just a better understanding of the "laws of physics" that govern the universe of Middle Earth. Sort of like the formulaic, assembly-line magic in the Harry-Potter books. What TM seems to be arguing is that while the use of "magic" in Middle Earth is more rare than in HP, it is still part of the "natural order" in that if the same elf does the same thing in the same way, you should get the same result. As opposed to "real magic", what I would call a "miracle", and which is probably closest to what Tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the kind of thing that cannot be counted on to recur.

Although a television would be called magic not-so-many generations ago, having a television back then would be ultimately useless. A television (the processor) is a device that requires a couple of things external to itself for it to function as it was intended -- electricity (power) and a broadcast signal to receive and transform into visuals (direction). Perhaps (and this is just theory to toss around in discussion) Elves differ from Men in that they have not only the better understanding of the processes governing Arda (the "television"), but also the innate connection to Eru/immortality/what-have-you (the "electricity") and the ability to order their (forgive me if the terms are inexact) spirit in such a way as to give direction to that power to affect the natural world (the "broadcast signal").

So as to confuse the discussion further, let me intentionally mix my analogies a bit. The wizards of the Harry Potter universe are analogous to the Elves of Middle-Earth in that they each have the innate ability to call upon whatever power-source to affect their respective natural worlds, but according to laws and rules known to each. Correspondingly, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves lack this innate ability, being the "muggles" of Middle Earth.

The difference between HP and ME, as I see it, is that in HP, the amount of "backing power" behind the "magic" appears to be limitless -- the wizards seem to be mere channels of some natural power outside themselves, the only difference in wizards being the level of their ability to channel whatever power supplies them. In ME, on the other hand, using "magic" seems to require a portion of that being's native strength, which can be exhausted if overused -- e.g. Morgoth pouring so much of his power into Arda that he himself was weakened to the point of being trapped in a fixed guise, or Sauron infusing the Ring with so much of his native power that he was reduced to almost nothing when it was destroyed, or Gandalf being weakened by his struggle with the Balrog over the door in Moria. It perhaps explains much about why magic is used so infrequently in ME.

It's a flawed analogy, I'm sure, but it was helpful to me in trying to understand TP's point of view. I now return you to your normal interesting discussion.

EDIT: This would also nicely explain why Feanor could not duplicate the creation of the Silmarils -- he had poured so much of his innate strength into their making, that he was incapable of doing it twice. Just a thought.