Do Balrogs Have Wings?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Moderator's note to follow up several of the above posts about this topic:

People, this is not a debating club, with strict rules about what constitutes a valid point and which style is allowed. The Downs has a long-standing tradition of mixing serious discussion with humour, and any member has the right to state her/his opinion. Of course it will find a better reception with others if it is founded on facts and supported by quotes, but the balrog question has not been conclusively decided elsewhere, and I doubt that we shall find the one correct answer here.

Tell us your thoughts, tell us why - and if you can convince us, great! If not, you still have the right to express your opinion, as long as you do so politely and in a friendly manner.

Now let's not debate about the debate - anyone who doesn't like this one is welcome to find another thread that suits her/him better! Better yet, find a topic we haven't discussed yet and start a new thread!

[Finduilas]

Since you wing fans haven't produced any evidence for yourself, I will I found this when looking up Balrogs in the Appendixes of the LOTR.

Thus they roused from sleep a thing of terror that, flying from Thangorodrim, had lain hidden at the foundations....

I think that if Tolkien had meant fleeing he would have used that word instead of flying.

Since I now have conflicting good arguements for both sides, I will withdraw myself from this debate, no longer convinced that they don't have wings, but not quite able to say they do.

--Finduilas--

[Mister Underhill]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

Since you wing fans haven't produced any evidence for yourself

Tsk! If you peruse the Downs' archives -- or even step back a few pages in this thread -- you'll find that some very vigorous pro-wing arguments have been made over the years. The "flying from Thangorodrim" quote has not, I assure you, gone unnoticed in the course of this longstanding debate.

For me, the wings question has become a Rorschach test of sorts, in which a poster's approach to an answer reveals as much or more about the poster than about the answer to the question.

Anyway, Esty's right that even posters like the esteemed Saucepan Man, who base their response more on feeling and emotion than on research and analysis, have a right to their opinion -- especially when it's the right opinion.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

I wonder, has anyone ever asked if the Fellowship members have wings? After all, Gandalf, a Maia who ought to know these things, says, "Fly, you fools!"

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I seem to recall that this quote has been used in this thread, but a thought occurred to me yesterday while reading it.
My older brother had asked me to explain the Balrog Wings debate and during my explanation I read this from HoME VII:

Originally Posted by HoME VII: The Treason of Isengard. Chapter X: The Bridge

"... A figure strode to the fissure, no more than man-high yet terror seemed to go before it. They could see the furnace-fire of its yellow eyes from afar; its arms were very long; it had a red [?tongue]. Through the air it sprang over the fiery fissure, the flames leaped up to greet it and wreathed about it. Its streaming hair seemed to catch fire and the sword that it held turned to flame. In its other hand it held a whip of many thongs.
...
The fiery figure ran across the floor. The Orcs yelled and shot many arrows.
...
Suddenly, with a spout of flame, it sprang on the bridge, but Gandalf stood firm.
...[Gandal's You cannot pass speech]...
The creature made no reply, but standing up tall so that it loomed above the wizard, it strode forward and smote him..."

Page 197-8

Now, it strikes me as odd that, in all this description of what the Balrog looks like, there is no mention of wings. Even in the final version as seen in The Lord of the Rings, the description of what the creature looks like and the mention of wings are not in the same place. There is a description of a creature of fire that has a sword. Then it moves a bit. There is some dialogue and only then are the shadow wings mentioned.
It strikes me that, if the creature has wings, then Tolkien would have mentioned it in the above, more detailed, description of the Balrog...

Unless I am missing something...

[Finduilas]

I agree with both Hookbill the Goomba and Estelyn Telcontar. But as I said, there is now, for me, evidence for both sides.

Mister Underhill, I was just joking when I said that. I had to start my confession some how (and while I have been here, they haven't shown any proof.)

--Fin--

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Finduilas

I think that if Tolkien had meant fleeing he would have used that word instead of flying.

As in... "Fly, you fools!"

Edit: Sorry, I see that I was not the first to jump on this. Also wanted to note that I am of the opinion that Balrog do indeed (at least in my personal reading of Tolkien's universe) have wings. But couldn't resist pointing Finduilas' overlooking of Tolkien's famous use of the word "fly."

[Bêthberry]

Obviously what is needed is a full linguistic compilation of all of Tolkien's uses of the word "fly". We need to see his pattern of collocation, the cognates he uses, his contexts, etc etc.

For now, here's this from CoH, a somewhat new source from which to extract more chapter and verse:

Originally Posted by Turin

"The Valar! They have forsaken you, and they hold Men in scorn. What use to look westward across the endless Sea to a dying sunset in the West? There is but one Vala with whom we have to do, and that is Morgoth; and if in the end we cannot overcome him, at least we can hurt him and hinder him ... Though mortal Men have little life beside the span of the Elves, they would rather spend it in battle than fly or submit.

My bolding and, to be pedantically precise, I've picked this up quoted by a review, not from the book.

[Aiwendil]

they would rather spend it in battle than fly or submit.

Turin preferred to keep both feet on the ground.

It's good that he didn't live to see Earendil take to the sky . . .

[Finduilas]

But couldn't resist pointing Finduilas' overlooking of Tolkien's famous use of the word "fly."

Lol. Yes I entirely understand that Tolkien does do that more than once. I'm glad that people disagree with me as to the proof of this statement.

I would also like to clarify something I said a few post ago.

Since I now have conflicting good arguements for both sides, I will withdraw myself from this debate, no longer convinced that they don't have wings, but not quite able to say they do.

I still think that they do not have wings. I have not abandoned the hosts of non wingers, but I am trying to abandon this thread... But I will wait till people are tired of abusing my silly comment on flying/fleeing

--Fin--