I Found the Entwives!

[the phantom]

Okay, time to respond to you silly unbelievers.

Originally Posted by me

And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?

Originally Posted by Ardamir

I am not that sure about this. Something tells me that the Elves would not have been so willing to show their magic explicitly.

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So there’s nothing in the Letters, nothing in the drafts, and nothing in the notes about the stump being an Entwife; in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found.

By us, or the Ents? There's a significant difference.

(Ah, I see that Sardy has also raised this point.)

You can claim that Tolkien shut the door on the matter, but by no means did he slam it shut and lock it.

Originally Posted by me

There was no need for the rope to be saved.

Originally Posted by Ardamir

They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it.

Yeah, for what- about five seconds? Wow, that rope sure came in handy.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The dangling rope was a means not only for Gollum to more easily follow them, but for him and any other pursuit – orcs or Nazgûl – to determine that the trail was hot.

Gollum found them anyway, without help from the rope. So don't name Gollum as a convincing reason.

As far as the off chance that an orc or Nazgul would find one single little rope in the middle of a huge wilderness, what's the big deal? What- do you think the Nazgul would think "Oh no! An elven rope! The One Ring must be close!" Obviously not. At the most, the Nazgul would think "Hmm... an elven rope. I wonder if some elf is trying to spy out our movements." Plus there would be no way to tell exactly how long the rope had been there.

Leaving the rope there on the cliff would most likely result in zero penalty for Sam and Frodo. So why not leave it?

Originally Posted by CS

I agree with those above who mentioned the idea that magic is linked in some mysterious way to divine Providence or intervention. It is fundamentally unpredictable and arises chiefly at need...

The rope was a waste of divine intervention, if you ask me. There was no "need".

Originally Posted by Gothbogg

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist.

Oh, and next you'll be telling us that you don't believe that Elves and Dwarves exist either, and that Tolkien just made all of this stuff up, and that his books should be placed in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section.

Originally Posted by SPM

I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer.

Yeah, and you're also the guy who believes he was just as good a reader when he was five years old as he is now.

Anyway, I'm sorry everyone, but you have not convinced me. And that, of course, makes you wrong.

Until JRRT himself posts on this thread and tells me I'm otherwise, I have found the Entwives.

Deal with it lads.

rescue a cat from a tree

That hardly sounds like a worthy and beneficial venture.

Tossing a cat up into a tree however......

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by TP

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .

What I am saying is that it is intirely possible that the show off elves could not just make the rope untie it self. . . it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs.

In light of this absurd thread, I thought I would post so new and exciting information regarding the Entwives. I have found irrefutable evidence that the Entwives do not exist! That’s 100% correct, to find out exactly where in the LotR this is stated, you need to consider what we know from the FotR and something rather interesting from the TTT. Keep in mind that I have no inclination of revealing any of this information out of fear of being wrong but I am sticking by my guns. So with my clues, happy hunting…







I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community. What a waste.

[The Might]

Umm...let's be serious, if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives.
But it isn't, because it isn't obvious at all.
It might seem obvious to some, but perhaps not to Tolkien.
All in all, I think the quotes from the Letters pretty much sum it all up.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Vala Ulmo

but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.

Thank goodness - I thought it was me......

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by some noob

I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.

Considering your self proclaimed lack of Tolkien/Barrow-Downs forum experience, what precisely makes you think that you are in any way qualified to state what honors or dishonors this community? Seeing such a statement in someone's first post ever is one of the most absurd things I've witnessed in a long while.

It is obvious that you do not understand how we are treating this topic- specifically when we are being over the top for entertainment purposes.

Here's a link to the novices and newcomers forum. Why don't you hop over there and start a thread about Balrog wings or something.

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by Rune

My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .

But the rope didn't need to! One of my primary arguments is that the situation did not call for divine intervention or unexplained magic.

Originally Posted by Rune

it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves. Walking on snow isn't "magic" to them. Their cloaks aren't "magic" either. They are as natural to elves as computers are to us. Computers aren't magic, though they would likely be called "magic" by individuals from early times.

If Elves made ropes that could come untied when commanded, it would not be "magic" to them- it would just be rope, and Haldir would be just as willing to "magically" untie rope as he was to "magically" run across rope.

Originally Posted by Might

if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives

Well maybe we're just a lot smarter than the people writing those "many net articles on Entwives". Anyway, are you saying that it is impossible to have a somewhat original idea that is correct?

If you had lived in the early 1900s, I suppose you would've been saying, "If that crap that Einstein is talking about was really true, then many other physicists would be saying it already."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by TP

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves. Walking on snow isn't "magic" to them. Their cloaks aren't "magic" either. They are as natural to elves as computers are to us. Computers aren't magic, though they would likely be called "magic" by individuals from early times.

If Elves made ropes that could come untied when commanded, it would not be "magic" to them- it would just be rope, and Haldir would be just as willing to "magically" untie rope as he was to "magically" run across rope.

Well, that is how you picture it, I do not think it has ever been said that this was infact the elves relation to magic. I have not read the HoME or any letters (appart from the christmas ones) yet, so I could be wrong.

Youe argument is that there is no such thing as magic in LotR or at least that is the consequenses. If we were talking about "magic" or "whichcraft" in our world then I would gladly agree with you, but to draw a paralel between this world and ME seems wrong to me. It seems to go against the spirit of the books.

Is the mirror of Galadriel not magic either? or is it just like watching the telly?

Originally Posted by TP

But the rope didn't need to! One of my primary arguments is that the situation did not call for divine intervention or unexplained magic.

You are right in saying that it did not absolutely need to in order for the quest to succede, but no one said that there was a specific set of rules that had to be met for the rope to drop. It is magic! We are not supposed to have a check list. . .

They are being followed (check)
It would be usefull if the rope chose drop now (check)
Sertain doom if rope does not drop

oh darn the last one was not pressent therefor it cannot be magic!

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by the phantom

But "magic" isn't "magic" to the Elves.

I disagree. Legolas sets himself apart from even Aragorn and Boromir in term of his ability - he does not consider it normal or ubiquitous.

Originally Posted by The ring goes south, FotR

The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf or over snow-an Elf

The leader of the elves also notes the peculiarity of the elven cloacks:

Originally Posted by Farewell to Lorien, FotR

And you will find them a great aid in keeping out of the sight of unfriendly eyes, whether you walk among the stones or the trees.

to a great effect:

Originally Posted by The Riders of Rohan

In pairs they galloped by, and though every now and then one rose in his stirrups and gazed ahead and to either side, they appeared not to perceive the three strangers sitting silently and watching them. The host had almost passed when suddenly Aragorn stood up, and called in a loud voice
...
- And strange too is your raiment. Have you sprung out of the grass? How did you escape our sight?

What Galadriel and Tolkien dislike is the confusion of Men between magic used by elves and magic used by the enemy, which is an altogether different thing from saying that they discard the notion of magic itself:

Originally Posted by Letter #131

I have not used 'magic' consistently, and indeed the Elven-queen Galadriel is obliged to remonstrate with the Hobbits on their confused use of the word both for the devices and operations of the Enemy, and for those of the Elves.

Originally Posted by Mirror of Galadriel, FotR

For this is what your folk would call magic. I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean; and they seem also to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

Originally Posted by Letter #155

I am afraid I have been far too casual about 'magic' and especially the use of the word; though Galadriel and others show by the criticism of the 'mortal' use of the word, that the thought about it is not altogether casual.
...
The Enemy's operations are by no means all goetic deceits, but 'magic' that produces real effects in the physical world. But his magia he uses to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate. Their magia the Elves and Gandalf use (sparingly): a magia, producing real results (like fire in a wet faggot) for specific beneficent purposes. Their goetic effects are entirely artistic and not intended to deceive: they never deceive Elves (but may deceive or bewilder unaware Men) since the difference is to them as clear as the difference to us between fiction, painting, and sculpture, and 'life'.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The way they crossed rivers was every bit as "magic" as their cloaks and boats and televisions.

The way that Haldir crossed the river had everything to do with his innate ability as an Elf (the abiity to walk across a single strand of rope) and nothing to do with any unusual quality of the rope itself. There was no need for him to reveal its auto-untie function (if indeed this rope shared the same quality as Sam's rope, which is not necessarily the case) because there were Elves on both sides of the river.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed.

Perhaps this particular quality of the rope only worked in certain circumstances and they did not want to raise the Fellowship's expectations. Sam was all but distraught at the thought of having to leave it behind, so perhaps that is the "trigger" that was required. Possibly, the Elves thought those of other races incapable of forming such a bond with an Elven artifact such as to trigger its capabilities in this regard. In any event, while seemingly at odds with the manner in which most of the other gifts were handed over, this point by no means precludes the possibility that the rope had auto-untying capability.

Well, of course. If something in the passage could "specifically relate to Entwives" we wouldn't have this thread, would we? The answer would be settled.

I agree. But if you would care to refer back to the passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit quoted by Ardamir, you will see that (as noted in my post #70) there is far more in that passage which might be interpreted as subtle references to the Entwives than in the passage to which you are precariously clinging.

Woah! Stop right there. No need to go further. You made my point for me. "Tolkien points out"!

You are of course conveniently overlooking the hint that Tolkien gives us as to the rope's capability. When Sam's gentle tug brings the rope down and Frodo attributes this either to the inadequacy of Sam's knot or the rope breaking, Sam says:

"... but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.”

Case closed.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by TT, The Taming of Sméagol

He stroked the rope's end and shook it gently. `It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel,' he murmured nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell. To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.

I think you're both overlooking something very important here. There was a trigger, a "magic word", if you will. The rope was called, using the name if its maker, and it responded. Obviously, the word "Galadriel" has magical properties, and invoking it over the rope was the key, the trigger, by which the bearer could activate the "loosening mode". Something akin to a password. Sam says "Galadriel" and pulls the rope -- the knot falls away. Seems clear enough to me.

In a more serious vein, I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. I think of "magic" as almost synonymous with "miracle". C.S. Lewis defined miracles (I'm paraphrasing) as displays of supernatural power which supercede the ordinary laws of physics. I think what TP is attempting to assert (though I'm open to correction)is that what some people call "magic" is just a better understanding of the "laws of physics" that govern the universe of Middle Earth. Sort of like the formulaic, assembly-line magic in the Harry-Potter books. What TM seems to be arguing is that while the use of "magic" in Middle Earth is more rare than in HP, it is still part of the "natural order" in that if the same elf does the same thing in the same way, you should get the same result. As opposed to "real magic", what I would call a "miracle", and which is probably closest to what Tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the kind of thing that cannot be counted on to recur.

Although a television would be called magic not-so-many generations ago, having a television back then would be ultimately useless. A television (the processor) is a device that requires a couple of things external to itself for it to function as it was intended -- electricity (power) and a broadcast signal to receive and transform into visuals (direction). Perhaps (and this is just theory to toss around in discussion) Elves differ from Men in that they have not only the better understanding of the processes governing Arda (the "television"), but also the innate connection to Eru/immortality/what-have-you (the "electricity") and the ability to order their (forgive me if the terms are inexact) spirit in such a way as to give direction to that power to affect the natural world (the "broadcast signal").

So as to confuse the discussion further, let me intentionally mix my analogies a bit. The wizards of the Harry Potter universe are analogous to the Elves of Middle-Earth in that they each have the innate ability to call upon whatever power-source to affect their respective natural worlds, but according to laws and rules known to each. Correspondingly, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves lack this innate ability, being the "muggles" of Middle Earth.

The difference between HP and ME, as I see it, is that in HP, the amount of "backing power" behind the "magic" appears to be limitless -- the wizards seem to be mere channels of some natural power outside themselves, the only difference in wizards being the level of their ability to channel whatever power supplies them. In ME, on the other hand, using "magic" seems to require a portion of that being's native strength, which can be exhausted if overused -- e.g. Morgoth pouring so much of his power into Arda that he himself was weakened to the point of being trapped in a fixed guise, or Sauron infusing the Ring with so much of his native power that he was reduced to almost nothing when it was destroyed, or Gandalf being weakened by his struggle with the Balrog over the door in Moria. It perhaps explains much about why magic is used so infrequently in ME.

It's a flawed analogy, I'm sure, but it was helpful to me in trying to understand TP's point of view. I now return you to your normal interesting discussion.

EDIT: This would also nicely explain why Feanor could not duplicate the creation of the Silmarils -- he had poured so much of his innate strength into their making, that he was incapable of doing it twice. Just a thought.

[Aaron]

Got reminded of how much I love this thread and decided to repost here.
Every so often, I'll visit this thing, go over the OP and mull over what Teleporno said, years later and it's probably obvious the guy was a hoaxer, but what can I say? He inspired me! Perhaps he believed in what he said.

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Teleporno stated the importance of the womens liberation movement, what if the fate of the Entiwives reflects the other women, the ones who stayed within the old patriarchal system - waiting for things to change rather than changing them themselves?

What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aaron

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Becoming "treeish" seems to be a process requiring a long period of time, so I don't see that happening on a large scale without at least some Ents being aware. I would also question the likelihood of the process happening to every one of the Entwives, since it seems to affect Ents fairly randomly, and not necessarily as an intentional act.

[Ardent]

This is from the song of the Entwives:

When spring is come to garth and field, and corn is in the blade;
When blossom like a shining snow is on the orchard laid;
When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here and will not come, because my land is fair.

Fragrance fills the air in Ithilien, but the general type of trees are not orchard species, and the trees at the crossroads are far too large to fit the type described by Treebeard:

"But the entwives gave their minds to the lesser trees, and to the meads in the sunshine beyond the feet of the forest; and they saw the sloe in the thicket... and the green herbs in the waterlands... and bear leaf and fruit..."

I do not know of any reason to suppose the Entwives were even 'treeish'. Though they had "the eyes of our people" they also had hair parched by the sun. This is why I'm not inclined to think the sighting of a tree that walked in The Shire was an Entwife. Though we're told they would like the Shire this sounds more like a searching Ent.
Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Ardent

Considering their love of fruit and corn and watermeadow, and their golden hair, and the structure of Entish names (in our language at any rate) I would say that Goldberry fits the bill.

While this is my favoured view, I'm still glad that there is no explicit statement of 'here be an Entwife'. Even if there were such a comment from JRRT it would still raise the question of where the rest had gone, and it's much more fascinating to think Goldberry might be some other being like a Maiar or a fair young elf queen.

That's a very interesting point of view, never thought of it that way. It's certainly innovative and I like it, even though I don't find it likely But it's certainly a nice idea. I guess why I never thought of that was, Goldberry's personality does not seem very much like the way the Entwives are described. And while it is true Treebeard does not seem to recollect very well whether the Entwives looked a lot like the Ents or not, still, it is probably rather safe to assume, or expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...

Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?

[Ardent]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

... expect, that Goldberry should have been a bit more, hum, treeish if she had been one...

It was the Ents who loved the great trees, the Entwives loved lesser trees and watermeadows and herbs etc. If shepherd becomes like sheep then I'd expect Entwives to become more like the plants they love, in Goldberry's case waterlillies or Irises perhaps. But then if, as treebeard says, "the elves started it [talking to the trees to waken them]" then why should Ent not become more Elvish?

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

... Also, there's her name "River-daughter". She seems to be heavily associated with just that, she sings the rain-songs and songs about streams and so on, so why is she "River-daughter" if she is an Ent(wife)?

Because:
"When shower and Sun upon the Earth with fragrance fill the air,
I'll linger here..."

It's a pity we don't know much about Radagast because herblore was part of his expertise, and he was the Maiar sent to Middle Earth by the female Valar who sang the Ents and herbs into being. Perhaps he dwelled in Rhosgobel, in the eaves of Mirkwood, because that was where the rest of the Entwives were? Certainly the fields of the Beornings were as garden-like as the Barrow Downs. Bilbo and Thorin's company, coming into that land:

"...noticed that great patches of flowers had begun to spring up, all the same kinds growing together as if they had been planted." TH, Queer Lodgings.