I Found the Entwives!

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist. Nor did Tolkien desire them to exist. We always thought of Treebeard as a friendly, humourous character but such thoughts are not in line with the bittersweet ending of LOTR. In order to flesh out his creation Tolkien added a tinge of tragedy to the tale. And in doing so further made us sympathise with a character other (lesser) writers would dismiss as "childish".

[Aaron]

Why do you have to be so logical about it? Would it be so hard to grab your copy of LOTR and try to find them? They were not just a means of making the Ents look good. Tolkien was a great writer and you can be sure that if he put them in there then they clearly serve some kind of purpose.

[Gothbogg the Ripper]

Pfft, it's better to be logical about these things rather than delude yourself. Tolkien had a great mind but he had to make "whole" characters. Without the Entwives this was not possible. Stop looking for clues like some bloody socialist. Go do something better with your time. I dunno, rescue a cat from a tree, stab a Roman dictator-for-life on March 15, write a threatening letter to a politician. The world is full of beauty! Stop wasting that beauty by searching for things that aren't real!

[the phantom]

Okay, time to respond to you silly unbelievers.

Originally Posted by me

And since we're dealing with such a show off, don't you think that if the ropes could be untied magically he would've done so?

Originally Posted by Ardamir

I am not that sure about this. Something tells me that the Elves would not have been so willing to show their magic explicitly.

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

So there’s nothing in the Letters, nothing in the drafts, and nothing in the notes about the stump being an Entwife; in fact, Tolkien says on at least two separate occasions that he does not believe they will ever be found.

By us, or the Ents? There's a significant difference.

(Ah, I see that Sardy has also raised this point.)

You can claim that Tolkien shut the door on the matter, but by no means did he slam it shut and lock it.

Originally Posted by me

There was no need for the rope to be saved.

Originally Posted by Ardamir

They did have use of the rope later on, actually almost immediately afterwards - they tied Gollum with it.

Yeah, for what- about five seconds? Wow, that rope sure came in handy.

Originally Posted by Alcuin

The dangling rope was a means not only for Gollum to more easily follow them, but for him and any other pursuit – orcs or Nazgûl – to determine that the trail was hot.

Gollum found them anyway, without help from the rope. So don't name Gollum as a convincing reason.

As far as the off chance that an orc or Nazgul would find one single little rope in the middle of a huge wilderness, what's the big deal? What- do you think the Nazgul would think "Oh no! An elven rope! The One Ring must be close!" Obviously not. At the most, the Nazgul would think "Hmm... an elven rope. I wonder if some elf is trying to spy out our movements." Plus there would be no way to tell exactly how long the rope had been there.

Leaving the rope there on the cliff would most likely result in zero penalty for Sam and Frodo. So why not leave it?

Originally Posted by CS

I agree with those above who mentioned the idea that magic is linked in some mysterious way to divine Providence or intervention. It is fundamentally unpredictable and arises chiefly at need...

The rope was a waste of divine intervention, if you ask me. There was no "need".

Originally Posted by Gothbogg

I honestly believe that the Entwives do not exist.

Oh, and next you'll be telling us that you don't believe that Elves and Dwarves exist either, and that Tolkien just made all of this stuff up, and that his books should be placed in the Fantasy/Sci-Fi section.

Originally Posted by SPM

I am afraid, phantom, that I do not find your proposition convincing in the least. In a fantasy world like Middle-earth, I have no difficulty in believing that an Elven rope could “magically” untie itself if truly willed to do so by its bearer.

Yeah, and you're also the guy who believes he was just as good a reader when he was five years old as he is now.

Anyway, I'm sorry everyone, but you have not convinced me. And that, of course, makes you wrong.

Until JRRT himself posts on this thread and tells me I'm otherwise, I have found the Entwives.

Deal with it lads.

rescue a cat from a tree

That hardly sounds like a worthy and beneficial venture.

Tossing a cat up into a tree however......

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by TP

Why? Elves don't consider their "magic" to be magic, do they? The things that we would call "magical" about them are simply natural abilities, the way walking and talking are for us.

And as I've already pointed out, Haldir quite obviously had no qualms about displaying his "magic" (the stunt on the rope).

If Lorien ropes could untie themselves in response to mental commands, Haldir would've done it.

That's the way it is. End of story.

My good phantom, I am sure that you are well read in fantasy and fairytales and surely you must have come across magical items that only show their full potential when really needed to. . .

What I am saying is that it is intirely possible that the show off elves could not just make the rope untie it self. . . it is actually often the standard that magic is not used for everyday needs.

In light of this absurd thread, I thought I would post so new and exciting information regarding the Entwives. I have found irrefutable evidence that the Entwives do not exist! That’s 100% correct, to find out exactly where in the LotR this is stated, you need to consider what we know from the FotR and something rather interesting from the TTT. Keep in mind that I have no inclination of revealing any of this information out of fear of being wrong but I am sticking by my guns. So with my clues, happy hunting…







I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community. What a waste.

[The Might]

Umm...let's be serious, if such things had been so obvious as many here claim, then this would have been mentioned in many net articles on Entwives.
But it isn't, because it isn't obvious at all.
It might seem obvious to some, but perhaps not to Tolkien.
All in all, I think the quotes from the Letters pretty much sum it all up.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Vala Ulmo

but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.

Thank goodness - I thought it was me......

[the phantom]

Originally Posted by some noob

I am new to Tolkien forums and new to Barrowdowns but it’s post like “I found the entwives” that dishonor the community.

Considering your self proclaimed lack of Tolkien/Barrow-Downs forum experience, what precisely makes you think that you are in any way qualified to state what honors or dishonors this community? Seeing such a statement in someone's first post ever is one of the most absurd things I've witnessed in a long while.

It is obvious that you do not understand how we are treating this topic- specifically when we are being over the top for entertainment purposes.

Here's a link to the novices and newcomers forum. Why don't you hop over there and start a thread about Balrog wings or something.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by the phantom

The way they crossed rivers was every bit as "magic" as their cloaks and boats and televisions.

The way that Haldir crossed the river had everything to do with his innate ability as an Elf (the abiity to walk across a single strand of rope) and nothing to do with any unusual quality of the rope itself. There was no need for him to reveal its auto-untie function (if indeed this rope shared the same quality as Sam's rope, which is not necessarily the case) because there were Elves on both sides of the river.

Originally Posted by the phantom

Why weren't they told about THE ROPE?! It makes no sense!! If the rope had special properties as important as auto-untie then they would have been informed.

Perhaps this particular quality of the rope only worked in certain circumstances and they did not want to raise the Fellowship's expectations. Sam was all but distraught at the thought of having to leave it behind, so perhaps that is the "trigger" that was required. Possibly, the Elves thought those of other races incapable of forming such a bond with an Elven artifact such as to trigger its capabilities in this regard. In any event, while seemingly at odds with the manner in which most of the other gifts were handed over, this point by no means precludes the possibility that the rope had auto-untying capability.

Well, of course. If something in the passage could "specifically relate to Entwives" we wouldn't have this thread, would we? The answer would be settled.

I agree. But if you would care to refer back to the passage from Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit quoted by Ardamir, you will see that (as noted in my post #70) there is far more in that passage which might be interpreted as subtle references to the Entwives than in the passage to which you are precariously clinging.

Woah! Stop right there. No need to go further. You made my point for me. "Tolkien points out"!

You are of course conveniently overlooking the hint that Tolkien gives us as to the rope's capability. When Sam's gentle tug brings the rope down and Frodo attributes this either to the inadequacy of Sam's knot or the rope breaking, Sam says:

"... but I think the rope came off itself – when I called.”

Case closed.

[Thenamir]

Originally Posted by TT, The Taming of Sméagol

He stroked the rope's end and shook it gently. `It goes hard parting with anything I brought out of the Elf-country. Made by Galadriel herself, too, maybe. Galadriel,' he murmured nodding his head mournfully. He looked up and gave one last pull to the rope as if in farewell. To the complete surprise of both the hobbits it came loose. Sam fell over, and the long grey coils slithered silently down on top of him.

I think you're both overlooking something very important here. There was a trigger, a "magic word", if you will. The rope was called, using the name if its maker, and it responded. Obviously, the word "Galadriel" has magical properties, and invoking it over the rope was the key, the trigger, by which the bearer could activate the "loosening mode". Something akin to a password. Sam says "Galadriel" and pulls the rope -- the knot falls away. Seems clear enough to me.

In a more serious vein, I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. I think of "magic" as almost synonymous with "miracle". C.S. Lewis defined miracles (I'm paraphrasing) as displays of supernatural power which supercede the ordinary laws of physics. I think what TP is attempting to assert (though I'm open to correction)is that what some people call "magic" is just a better understanding of the "laws of physics" that govern the universe of Middle Earth. Sort of like the formulaic, assembly-line magic in the Harry-Potter books. What TM seems to be arguing is that while the use of "magic" in Middle Earth is more rare than in HP, it is still part of the "natural order" in that if the same elf does the same thing in the same way, you should get the same result. As opposed to "real magic", what I would call a "miracle", and which is probably closest to what Tolkien called the "eucatastrophe", the kind of thing that cannot be counted on to recur.

Although a television would be called magic not-so-many generations ago, having a television back then would be ultimately useless. A television (the processor) is a device that requires a couple of things external to itself for it to function as it was intended -- electricity (power) and a broadcast signal to receive and transform into visuals (direction). Perhaps (and this is just theory to toss around in discussion) Elves differ from Men in that they have not only the better understanding of the processes governing Arda (the "television"), but also the innate connection to Eru/immortality/what-have-you (the "electricity") and the ability to order their (forgive me if the terms are inexact) spirit in such a way as to give direction to that power to affect the natural world (the "broadcast signal").

So as to confuse the discussion further, let me intentionally mix my analogies a bit. The wizards of the Harry Potter universe are analogous to the Elves of Middle-Earth in that they each have the innate ability to call upon whatever power-source to affect their respective natural worlds, but according to laws and rules known to each. Correspondingly, Men, Hobbits, and Dwarves lack this innate ability, being the "muggles" of Middle Earth.

The difference between HP and ME, as I see it, is that in HP, the amount of "backing power" behind the "magic" appears to be limitless -- the wizards seem to be mere channels of some natural power outside themselves, the only difference in wizards being the level of their ability to channel whatever power supplies them. In ME, on the other hand, using "magic" seems to require a portion of that being's native strength, which can be exhausted if overused -- e.g. Morgoth pouring so much of his power into Arda that he himself was weakened to the point of being trapped in a fixed guise, or Sauron infusing the Ring with so much of his native power that he was reduced to almost nothing when it was destroyed, or Gandalf being weakened by his struggle with the Balrog over the door in Moria. It perhaps explains much about why magic is used so infrequently in ME.

It's a flawed analogy, I'm sure, but it was helpful to me in trying to understand TP's point of view. I now return you to your normal interesting discussion.

EDIT: This would also nicely explain why Feanor could not duplicate the creation of the Silmarils -- he had poured so much of his innate strength into their making, that he was incapable of doing it twice. Just a thought.

[Aaron]

Got reminded of how much I love this thread and decided to repost here.
Every so often, I'll visit this thing, go over the OP and mull over what Teleporno said, years later and it's probably obvious the guy was a hoaxer, but what can I say? He inspired me! Perhaps he believed in what he said.

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Teleporno stated the importance of the womens liberation movement, what if the fate of the Entiwives reflects the other women, the ones who stayed within the old patriarchal system - waiting for things to change rather than changing them themselves?

What do you think?

[Inziladun]

Originally Posted by Aaron

But I had an idea, and by all means, call me a crazy idiot.
But what if the Entwives had became 'treeish'? What if they didn't all go away, but stayed in the forests?
Dreaming of wandering off and creating a garden, they instead stayed put, waiting for their husbands to share their vision.

But the male Ents, being notoriously contemptuous of 'hastiness' dithered and dathered, doing so for so long that the Entiwives became static and tree-like - literally bored stiff with their inaction.

Becoming "treeish" seems to be a process requiring a long period of time, so I don't see that happening on a large scale without at least some Ents being aware. I would also question the likelihood of the process happening to every one of the Entwives, since it seems to affect Ents fairly randomly, and not necessarily as an intentional act.