If the Children of Húrin was filmed... - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Sauron the White · 03-28-2007, 12:23 PM

MIthalwen - thank you for that link.
According to the statement you linked to, here are some numbers

April 1999 - April 200
Income 137,323 British pounds
that would be pre-film

April 2003 - April 2004
Income 5,494,330 British pounds
that would be at the height of the film

April 2005 - April 2006
Income 1,166,199 British pounds
that would be post-film

It is my understanding that a British pound is about equal to $2 US dollars.

So what we have here is income increasing from a pre-film level of less than $400,000.00 US dollars to an income level of nearly $11 million US dollars. That is astounding and represents an increase of some fortyfold.

Since the film has left the theaters, the revenue stream is still eight times greater than it was pre-film.

I do not want to misunderstand or misrepresent these numbers. If I am wrong or am reading this incorrectly please correct me.

Do these numbers represent ALL and TOTAL income to the Tolkien Estate from the revenues of books or other royalties due to them during the film period?

Mithalwen · 03-28-2007, 12:43 PM

You are misrepresenting the income since there was a £2million bequest in the £5million year which I imagine from the timing to be the estate of Father John Tolkien.

Whether it is all the income is not specified explicitly but it is implied in the notes to the accounts it does say that the increase (other than the legacy) was due to incidental revenue from the films. while the film rights had been long gone and the estate had no control over them (one of the reasons they kept their distance), they would have been entitled to some royalties when the books were quoted in "film companion" books etc.

For myself when various works were reprinted at the time of the films I bought them .. but it was not becuse of the films influence though I saw them ... I had waited twenty years to get my hands on a copy of The road goes ever on....

Sauron the White · 03-28-2007, 01:13 PM

Mithalwen - thank you for that explaination. So if we remove the money from the bequest, that still leave some 3 million pounds or 6 million US dollars in increased revenues from pre-film years. And then there is also the continued level of higher sales and revenues from pre-film years. Both figures are significant and substantial.

These funds do NOT represent all the money paid to the Tolkien Estate from book royalties do they? Perhaps I am not again reading this correctly and there are other explainations, but it seems that the films - regardless of how they were accepted by CT and family - did put a great deal of additional revenues into the pockets of CT, the Estate, their Trust and other family members.

That was my point in the previous post.

We are led to believe that CT does not approve of the movies. One can even say that CT would rather the films had never been made and the only version we have of Middle-earth would be the one his father constructed in his books. That is fine. My point was simply that it is an interesting stance for Christoper to adopt since he has benefitted significantly from the films themselves.

The phrase "having your cake and eating it too" applies here. Of course, once you eat your cake, you can no longer have it for it is gone. That is the irony of the situation. CT has found a way to have his cake (spurn the films and their vision of his fathers Middle-earth) and eat it at the same time (enjoy the revenues from vastly increased book sales due to the films popularity). No small accomplishment.

The webpage of the Tolkien Estate says they have no plans to sell film or other rights to COH. I take them at their word.

davem · 03-28-2007, 02:00 PM

Just a note - I don't think CT 'spurned' the movies. Its more that he felt they could not adequately present his father's creation. There is a lot of nonsense going around that CT was 'anti' the movies - even angry about them. I think if he was really 'anti' the movies then Alan Lee would not have been asked to produce the paintings for CoH.

As to the monetary side & who gets how much of what, its all beyond me, being, as I am, a bear of very little brain, but the fact that the family did not have to do anything but live a very comfortable life on the proceedings of their father's work, I think what they have done in setting up the Trust deserves nothing but respect.

Of course the Estate (& therefore the Trust) benefitted greatly from the revenue generated by the movies, but what would one expect them to do - turn it down? As I said, neither CT nor any other member of the family has made any disparaging or negative comments about the movies - CT merely expressed his personal feelings about the inadequacy of the medium to do justice to his father's vision. The movies were made & as a result the Estate gained the means to do some good work. If there's a problem there its hidden from me....

Sauron the White · 03-28-2007, 02:07 PM

So there is no validity to the story that after Royd Tolkien appeared as a Gondorian ranger in the film he was shut out of Estate matters by his father who was angry at him?

davem · 03-28-2007, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sauron the White

So there is no validity to the story that after Royd Tolkien appeared as a Gondorian ranger in the film he was shut out of Estate matters by his father who was angry at him?

None. Royd was not a member of the Estate (if I can put it that way, & Royd was Tolkien's great grandson, not Christopher's son. The 'story' that was going around was that Christopher had refused to have anything to do with his son Simon after Simon expressed approval of the movies & as far as I'm aware Royd was Michael's grandson. Family tree http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien...#Simon_Tolkien. There is a statement by CT released via his lawyers here http://tolkiennews.net/article.php?s...61005151054723 the essential part being

Quote:

# There was no dispute between Christopher Tolkien and his son, Simon Tolkien, as a result of Simon Tolkien going to see the first Lord of the Rings film.
# Simon Tolkien was never on the Board of any Tolkien company and was not 'removed' from any such position by Christopher Tolkien.
# Nor has Christopher Tolkien 'disowned' Simon Tolkien.

Sauron the White · 03-28-2007, 02:43 PM

Thank you for clarifying that. Although I never did claim that Royd was Christopher's son - only that "his father" did not like his film appearance. His father, of course being one of the Tolkien Estate members. But your valuable link cleared that up for me.

If all this is true, I wonder how all these nasty stories get started leading folks like me to believe that the Tolkien Estate - and Christoper in particular - did not like or approve of the movies? I could have sworn than I have read this many times in many places over the last few years. I certainly cannot remember ever seeing the opposite - that Christopher or any other member of the Estate was thankful for the films, was thankful for the additional revenue they produced for them, or at the least had even enjoyed them.

03-28-2007, 12:43 PM	#2
Mithalwen Pilgrim Soul Join Date: May 2004 Location: watching the wonga-wonga birds circle... Posts: 9,461	You are misrepresenting the income since there was a £2million bequest in the £5million year which I imagine from the timing to be the estate of Father John Tolkien. Whether it is all the income is not specified explicitly but it is implied in the notes to the accounts it does say that the increase (other than the legacy) was due to incidental revenue from the films. while the film rights had been long gone and the estate had no control over them (one of the reasons they kept their distance), they would have been entitled to some royalties when the books were quoted in "film companion" books etc. For myself when various works were reprinted at the time of the films I bought them .. but it was not becuse of the films influence though I saw them ... I had waited twenty years to get my hands on a copy of The road goes ever on.... __________________ “But Finrod walks with Finarfin his father beneath the trees in Eldamar.” Christopher Tolkien, Requiescat in pace

03-28-2007, 02:00 PM	#4
davem Illustrious Ulair Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: In the home of lost causes, and forsaken beliefs, and unpopular names,and impossible loyalties Posts: 4,240	Just a note - I don't think CT 'spurned' the movies. Its more that he felt they could not adequately present his father's creation. There is a lot of nonsense going around that CT was 'anti' the movies - even angry about them. I think if he was really 'anti' the movies then Alan Lee would not have been asked to produce the paintings for CoH. As to the monetary side & who gets how much of what, its all beyond me, being, as I am, a bear of very little brain, but the fact that the family did not have to do anything but live a very comfortable life on the proceedings of their father's work, I think what they have done in setting up the Trust deserves nothing but respect. Of course the Estate (& therefore the Trust) benefitted greatly from the revenue generated by the movies, but what would one expect them to do - turn it down? As I said, neither CT nor any other member of the family has made any disparaging or negative comments about the movies - CT merely expressed his personal feelings about the inadequacy of the medium to do justice to his father's vision. The movies were made & as a result the Estate gained the means to do some good work. If there's a problem there its hidden from me.... __________________ “Everything was an object. If you killed a dwarf you could use it as a weapon – it was no different to other large heavy objects."

03-28-2007, 12:23 PM	#1
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	MIthalwen - thank you for that link. According to the statement you linked to, here are some numbers April 1999 - April 200 Income 137,323 British pounds that would be pre-film April 2003 - April 2004 Income 5,494,330 British pounds that would be at the height of the film April 2005 - April 2006 Income 1,166,199 British pounds that would be post-film It is my understanding that a British pound is about equal to $2 US dollars. So what we have here is income increasing from a pre-film level of less than $400,000.00 US dollars to an income level of nearly $11 million US dollars. That is astounding and represents an increase of some fortyfold. Since the film has left the theaters, the revenue stream is still eight times greater than it was pre-film. I do not want to misunderstand or misrepresent these numbers. If I am wrong or am reading this incorrectly please correct me. Do these numbers represent ALL and TOTAL income to the Tolkien Estate from the revenues of books or other royalties due to them during the film period?

03-28-2007, 01:13 PM	#3
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Mithalwen - thank you for that explaination. So if we remove the money from the bequest, that still leave some 3 million pounds or 6 million US dollars in increased revenues from pre-film years. And then there is also the continued level of higher sales and revenues from pre-film years. Both figures are significant and substantial. These funds do NOT represent all the money paid to the Tolkien Estate from book royalties do they? Perhaps I am not again reading this correctly and there are other explainations, but it seems that the films - regardless of how they were accepted by CT and family - did put a great deal of additional revenues into the pockets of CT, the Estate, their Trust and other family members. That was my point in the previous post. We are led to believe that CT does not approve of the movies. One can even say that CT would rather the films had never been made and the only version we have of Middle-earth would be the one his father constructed in his books. That is fine. My point was simply that it is an interesting stance for Christoper to adopt since he has benefitted significantly from the films themselves. The phrase "having your cake and eating it too" applies here. Of course, once you eat your cake, you can no longer have it for it is gone. That is the irony of the situation. CT has found a way to have his cake (spurn the films and their vision of his fathers Middle-earth) and eat it at the same time (enjoy the revenues from vastly increased book sales due to the films popularity). No small accomplishment. The webpage of the Tolkien Estate says they have no plans to sell film or other rights to COH. I take them at their word.

03-28-2007, 02:07 PM	#5
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	So there is no validity to the story that after Royd Tolkien appeared as a Gondorian ranger in the film he was shut out of Estate matters by his father who was angry at him?

03-28-2007, 02:43 PM	#7
Sauron the White Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 903	Thank you for clarifying that. Although I never did claim that Royd was Christopher's son - only that "his father" did not like his film appearance. His father, of course being one of the Tolkien Estate members. But your valuable link cleared that up for me. If all this is true, I wonder how all these nasty stories get started leading folks like me to believe that the Tolkien Estate - and Christoper in particular - did not like or approve of the movies? I could have sworn than I have read this many times in many places over the last few years. I certainly cannot remember ever seeing the opposite - that Christopher or any other member of the Estate was thankful for the films, was thankful for the additional revenue they produced for them, or at the least had even enjoyed them.