Were the Istari Elves or not??? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Morgoth the Great · 08-01-2003, 11:19 PM

ive been confused about this for some time, and you guys are the most Tolkien-wise people i have ever met, so i was hoping some one could give me a straight forward yes or no, with explanation. it would be a great help to my increased learning

Nils · 08-01-2003, 11:30 PM

No.

The Istari were Maiar who were sent to Middle-earth from the Blessed Lands. They arrived by ship at the Grey Havens. At the End of the Return of the King when Frodo, Gandalf and company set sail from the Grey Havens, they were sailing back to the blessed lands.

Although Maiar are angelic beings or lesser gods, they were sent in the form of men. They did not possess all of their natural power and suffered from the same weaknesses of any human.

They were sent to help the people of Middle-earth to fight Sauron, they were not sent to fight Sauron directly. I hope that made some sense, I'm really tired.

[ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 08-02-2003, 02:35 AM

This is a question that other newcomers to Tolkien's books might be interested in, so I'm moving this thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there.

Tarien Ithil · 08-02-2003, 11:45 AM

Yes, Gandalf and Saruman were Istaris, weren't they? The Maiar were angelic beings in the form of an old man.

Elennar Starfire · 08-02-2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

They did not possess all of their natural power and suffered from the same weaknesses of any human.

Not quite, they were immortal, weren't they?

Nils · 08-02-2003, 01:03 PM

I guess that all depends on your definition of immortal. If by immortal you mean that they can't be killed, then that is incorrect. Gandalf was killed in his fight vs. the Balrog and Saruman was killed by Grima.

If you mean immortal in the same respect that Elves are immortal, then yes they do not die of old age.

Iarwain · 08-03-2003, 10:28 AM

It's funny that such a basic question could really provoke a serious discussion.

Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards (their names slip my mind at the moment) were all Istari. They arrived in Middle-Earth at the beginning of the third age, sent by the Valar to quietly aid the remaining exiles and the surviving Numenorians defend against Sauron, in disguise. Gandalf was sent by Manwe and Varda, Saruman was sent by Aule, Radagast by Yavanna, and I can't remember about the Blue wizards (again). In Valinor, they were some of an unknown number of Maiar that served under the Valar. But, they were also (in origin) of the same race of the Valar, that is to say that they were Ainur, The first creation of Eru recorded in Tolkien's books. So, to organize this, they were

Ainur>Maiar>Istari=Wizards

Iarwain

[ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ]

Silver Dragon · 08-04-2003, 12:06 AM

Quote from LOTR, The Return of the King, Appendix B, "The Third Age":
"When maybe a thousand years had passed...the Istari or Wizards [they're the same, Iarwain] appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear.
"They came therefore in the shape of Men, thought they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few [quote from The Two Towers: "'Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten...'"], but used such names as were given to them..."
End quote from LOTR

Quote from Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age:
"Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West [the Valar] to contest the power of Sauron, if he should rise again..."
End Silmarillion quote

Earlier in the Silmarillion (in the Valaquenta, "Of the Maiar") it states that the Istari, in particular Olorin, were Maiar. "Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin."

So no, the Istari were Maiar, not Elves.

[ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Tinuviel of Denton · 08-04-2003, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Yes, Gandalf and Saruman were Istaris, weren't they? The Maiar were angelic beings in the form of an old man.

You'll have to pardon me, but I'm going to pick this sentence to pieces. Istari is the plural, Istar the singular. The Maiar could take any form that they so chose, not just that of old men. (ie, Melian, Arien, etc.)

Okay, now to get on topic.

The Istari were Maiar who wore the forms of old men. Not Elves.

Actually, I was under the impression, from a few of the things that Gandalf said that he was there specifically to oppose Sauron, and that was why he left at the end of the Third Age because his task was through.

And I think that this question is pretty well answered. Mostly not by me.

Nils · 08-04-2003, 10:21 AM

Unfinished Tales is the place to find the most information on the Istari. You can find it in paper back for less than 10 bucks.

Heck, you might even find it in your local library for free!

Tarien Ithil · 08-06-2003, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Istari is the plural, Istar the singular

Pardon me! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Thanks, Tinuviel!

Voralphion · 08-06-2003, 07:24 PM

Quote:

and I can't remember about the Blue wizards

The blue wizards were called Alatar and Pallando and were sent by Orome. They journeyed to the far east of middle earth, but never returned, it is said they might have started cults.

Silver Dragon · 08-06-2003, 08:58 PM

Interesting...what book is that in?

[ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ]

Iarwain · 08-06-2003, 09:42 PM

the Unfinished tales provides us with all of the information on the Istari we could ever wish for

Iarwain

Silver Dragon · 08-06-2003, 10:48 PM

Really need to read that...

Iarwain · 08-07-2003, 08:29 AM

Yes, it's a wonderful read. The next thing to read after you've finished the Silmarillion, and before you continue on to the HoME books.

Iarwain

08-12-2003, 09:47 PM

Perhaps Gandalf was an elf, in a way, after all. Gandalf derives from two words that I forgot that mean "Elf of the Wand" when you put 'em together. The two words are elvish, so The elves named him, so perhaps they saw something of themselves in him. Also, the elves have an inner light. [Example, Elrond at those fords, where Frodo saw him as a glowing being] Perhaps Gandalf's Angelic light led the elves to believe he was one of them? okay, I'm done contradicting myself now.

Morgoth the Great · 08-12-2003, 10:02 PM

ok. maybe ive phrased this badly. a better way would be "were the Maiar elves or not"-because i have never counted them as elves, but someone put the point to me, and it kind of made sense, that the Maiar were accepted to the grey Havens and indeed came from there, and the only others that were there were the Valar and the Elves...

Sophia the Thunder Mistress · 08-12-2003, 10:10 PM

Blue Istari- "Gandalf" does indeed mean "Wand elf" but that is a name in a Mannish language, not in elvish (as the elves were pretty good at recognizing their own kind [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).

Also Elrond was never at the Ford of Bruinen, you are thinking of Glorfindel.

It is probably safe to say that Gandalf could have been mistaken for an elf (by someone who was unfamiliar with the elves... his name would indicate that such a mistake had occured at some point), but just because someone thought he might be one is no reason to assume he is. The Istari, Gandalf included, were quite clearly Maiar.

Morgoth the Great- The Maiar were not elves. The Maiar are the lesser division of the Ainur. The race of the Ainur (angelic beings) had two major divisions, the Valar and the Maiar. They are the same kind of being, basically, the only difference being that the Valar are mightier than the Maiar.

As relatives (so to speak) of the Valar, the Maiar are their helpers and Servants, and most live with them in Valinor.

I think you are a little confused as to the role of the Grey Havens in Tolkien. The Grey Havens is not the final destination of the elves who go westward. The Grey Havens is simply a city (Mithlond) on the West coast of Middle Earth where the Elves have a shipyard. The ships that leave from the Grey Havens are destined for the Undying Lands, which is where Valinor is. Valinor is the home of the Valar (and most of the Maiar).

So when they say that an elf went to the Grey Havens, it means that they sailed over the sea to Valinor, not that they stopped in Mithlond for an extended visit [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. The Maiar came from the Grey Havens in the sense that they came over the sea from Valinor. The Grey Havens is sort of like a Middle Earth Airport, you have to go there before you make an important trip, but it is not your destination.

So, the elves and the Maiar started on different sides of the ocean (originally), the Elves on Middle Earth and the Maiar in Valinor. They were certainly not the same race.

I hope this has cleared things up a little bit.

Sophia

[ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ]

08-01-2003, 11:19 PM	#1
Morgoth the Great Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 59	Were the Istari Elves or not??? ive been confused about this for some time, and you guys are the most Tolkien-wise people i have ever met, so i was hoping some one could give me a straight forward yes or no, with explanation. it would be a great help to my increased learning __________________ Walking to Rivendell: 130 miles. tiring it is too precious....

08-01-2003, 11:30 PM	#2
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	No. The Istari were Maiar who were sent to Middle-earth from the Blessed Lands. They arrived by ship at the Grey Havens. At the End of the Return of the King when Frodo, Gandalf and company set sail from the Grey Havens, they were sailing back to the blessed lands. Although Maiar are angelic beings or lesser gods, they were sent in the form of men. They did not possess all of their natural power and suffered from the same weaknesses of any human. They were sent to help the people of Middle-earth to fight Sauron, they were not sent to fight Sauron directly. I hope that made some sense, I'm really tired. [ August 02, 2003: Message edited by: Nils ] __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-02-2003, 02:35 AM	#3
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	This is a question that other newcomers to Tolkien's books might be interested in, so I'm moving this thread to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue there. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

08-02-2003, 11:45 AM	#4
Tarien Ithil Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: In the Shade of a Tree Posts: 253	Yes, Gandalf and Saruman were Istaris, weren't they? The Maiar were angelic beings in the form of an old man. __________________ “The English-speaking world is divided into those who have read The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit and those who are going to read them.” – Sunday Times Crickhollow

08-02-2003, 01:03 PM	#6
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	I guess that all depends on your definition of immortal. If by immortal you mean that they can't be killed, then that is incorrect. Gandalf was killed in his fight vs. the Balrog and Saruman was killed by Grima. If you mean immortal in the same respect that Elves are immortal, then yes they do not die of old age. __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-03-2003, 10:28 AM	#7
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	It's funny that such a basic question could really provoke a serious discussion. Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two Blue Wizards (their names slip my mind at the moment) were all Istari. They arrived in Middle-Earth at the beginning of the third age, sent by the Valar to quietly aid the remaining exiles and the surviving Numenorians defend against Sauron, in disguise. Gandalf was sent by Manwe and Varda, Saruman was sent by Aule, Radagast by Yavanna, and I can't remember about the Blue wizards (again). In Valinor, they were some of an unknown number of Maiar that served under the Valar. But, they were also (in origin) of the same race of the Valar, that is to say that they were Ainur, The first creation of Eru recorded in Tolkien's books. So, to organize this, they were Ainur>Maiar>Istari=Wizards Iarwain [ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Iarwain ] __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

08-04-2003, 12:06 AM	#8
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Quote from LOTR, The Return of the King, Appendix B, "The Third Age": "When maybe a thousand years had passed...the Istari or Wizards [they're the same, Iarwain] appeared in Middle-earth. It was afterwards said that they came out of the Far West and were messengers sent to contest the power of Sauron, and to unite all those who had the will to resist him; but they were forbidden to match his power with power, or to seek to dominate Elves or Men by force and fear. "They came therefore in the shape of Men, thought they were never young and aged only slowly, and they had many powers of mind and hand. They revealed their true names to few [quote from The Two Towers: "'Olorin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten...'"], but used such names as were given to them..." End quote from LOTR Quote from Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age: "Even as the first shadows were felt in Mirkwood there appeared in the west of Middle-earth the Istari, whom Men called Wizards. None knew at that time whence they were, save Cirdan of the Havens, and only to Elrond and to Galadriel did he reveal that they came over the Sea. But afterwards it was said among the Elves that they were messengers sent by the Lords of the West [the Valar] to contest the power of Sauron, if he should rise again..." End Silmarillion quote Earlier in the Silmarillion (in the Valaquenta, "Of the Maiar") it states that the Istari, in particular Olorin, were Maiar. "Wisest of the Maiar was Olorin." So no, the Istari were Maiar, not Elves. [ August 04, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-04-2003, 10:21 AM	#10
Nils Wight Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 129	Unfinished Tales is the place to find the most information on the Istari. You can find it in paper back for less than 10 bucks. Heck, you might even find it in your local library for free! __________________ For by your words you will be justified and by your words you will be condemned ~Matthew 12:37

08-06-2003, 08:58 PM	#13
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Interesting...what book is that in? [ August 06, 2003: Message edited by: Silver Dragon ] __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-06-2003, 09:42 PM	#14
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	the Unfinished tales provides us with all of the information on the Istari we could ever wish for Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

08-06-2003, 10:48 PM	#15
Silver Dragon Animated Skeleton Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Arg-eth Posts: 35	Really need to read that... __________________ "One is one and all alone and evermore shall be it so."

08-07-2003, 08:29 AM	#16
Iarwain Pugnaciously Primordial Paradox Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Birnham Wood Posts: 800	Yes, it's a wonderful read. The next thing to read after you've finished the Silmarillion, and before you continue on to the HoME books. Iarwain __________________ "And what are oaths but words we say to God?"

08-12-2003, 09:47 PM	#17
Suardeloth_Blue_Istari Guest Posts: n/a	Perhaps Gandalf was an elf, in a way, after all. Gandalf derives from two words that I forgot that mean "Elf of the Wand" when you put 'em together. The two words are elvish, so The elves named him, so perhaps they saw something of themselves in him. Also, the elves have an inner light. [Example, Elrond at those fords, where Frodo saw him as a glowing being] Perhaps Gandalf's Angelic light led the elves to believe he was one of them? okay, I'm done contradicting myself now.

08-12-2003, 10:02 PM	#18
Morgoth the Great Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Thangorodrim Posts: 59	ok. maybe ive phrased this badly. a better way would be "were the Maiar elves or not"-because i have never counted them as elves, but someone put the point to me, and it kind of made sense, that the Maiar were accepted to the grey Havens and indeed came from there, and the only others that were there were the Valar and the Elves... __________________ Walking to Rivendell: 130 miles. tiring it is too precious....

08-12-2003, 10:10 PM	#19
Sophia the Thunder Mistress Scent of Simbelmynë Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Aboard Highwind, bound for Traverse Town Posts: 1,780	Blue Istari- "Gandalf" does indeed mean "Wand elf" but that is a name in a Mannish language, not in elvish (as the elves were pretty good at recognizing their own kind [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). Also Elrond was never at the Ford of Bruinen, you are thinking of Glorfindel. It is probably safe to say that Gandalf could have been mistaken for an elf (by someone who was unfamiliar with the elves... his name would indicate that such a mistake had occured at some point), but just because someone thought he might be one is no reason to assume he is. The Istari, Gandalf included, were quite clearly Maiar. Morgoth the Great- The Maiar were not elves. The Maiar are the lesser division of the Ainur. The race of the Ainur (angelic beings) had two major divisions, the Valar and the Maiar. They are the same kind of being, basically, the only difference being that the Valar are mightier than the Maiar. As relatives (so to speak) of the Valar, the Maiar are their helpers and Servants, and most live with them in Valinor. I think you are a little confused as to the role of the Grey Havens in Tolkien. The Grey Havens is not the final destination of the elves who go westward. The Grey Havens is simply a city (Mithlond) on the West coast of Middle Earth where the Elves have a shipyard. The ships that leave from the Grey Havens are destined for the Undying Lands, which is where Valinor is. Valinor is the home of the Valar (and most of the Maiar). So when they say that an elf went to the Grey Havens, it means that they sailed over the sea to Valinor, not that they stopped in Mithlond for an extended visit [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]. The Maiar came from the Grey Havens in the sense that they came over the sea from Valinor. The Grey Havens is sort of like a Middle Earth Airport, you have to go there before you make an important trip, but it is not your destination. So, the elves and the Maiar started on different sides of the ocean (originally), the Elves on Middle Earth and the Maiar in Valinor. They were certainly not the same race. I hope this has cleared things up a little bit. Sophia [ August 13, 2003: Message edited by: Sophia the Thunder Mistress ] __________________ The seasons fall like silver swords, the years rush ever onward; and soon I sail, to leave this world, these lands where I have wander'd. O Elbereth! O Queen who dwells beyond the Western Seas, spare me yet a little time 'ere white ships come for me!