Did Gollum deserve death? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Folwren · 03-21-2007, 06:00 PM

Thank you Kuruharan. Right in the quote you quoted, Mansun, Gandalf said he deserved it.

Just because someone can not see into the future does not mean that they can not deal out punishment. There are crimes that deserve death, and even mortals and those that are immortal and wise are allowed and possibly expected to kill them for it.

Consider it thusly - If Bilbo had killed Gollum when he had a chance, Gandalf wouldn't have rebuked him, would he? Probably said something along the lines, "Well, well, well, I think there's more to this hobbit than meets the eye at first."

Or, if Gandalf himself had come across Gollum cradle stealing, I somehow think he wouldn't've spared his life.

Gandalf's rebuke to Frodo was not a question of 'If Gollum were brought to court for his crimes he wouldn't be killed' it was 'That's not very nice of you, Frodo, nor very wise. The fact that Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance should tell you that Gollum's time hadn't yet come. Don't be so hasty in such a matter and think before you speak and act.'

Morwen · 03-21-2007, 06:45 PM

I don't equate "dealing out death in judgment" with situations that involve self defense or the defense of others. Bilbo killing Gollum in self defense or a parent killing Gollum for attempting to murder his child is not the same as Frodo sitting in his living room making pronouncements on the fate of someone.

I agree that Gandalf is telling Frodo don't rush to judgment. But as for Gandalf's personal position on "dealing out death in judgment" he refrains from doing so at least twice, in the case of Gollum and Saruman. In the case of Gollum, Legolas reports at the Council of Elrond that Gandalf had told the elves of Mirkwood to hope for a cure. In the case of Saruman, in response to a question by either Merry or Pippin as to what he plans to do with Saruman, he states that he doesn't plan to do anything to him and regrets that much that was good now festers in the tower. Both Gollum and Saruman have done things that one might possibly kill them for but Gandalf does not suggest that such a thing be done and others seem to content to follow his lead.

03-21-2007, 06:00 PM	#1
Folwren Messenger of Hope Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a tiny, insignificant little town in one of the many States. Posts: 5,076	Thank you Kuruharan. Right in the quote you quoted, Mansun, Gandalf said he deserved it. Just because someone can not see into the future does not mean that they can not deal out punishment. There are crimes that deserve death, and even mortals and those that are immortal and wise are allowed and possibly expected to kill them for it. Consider it thusly - If Bilbo had killed Gollum when he had a chance, Gandalf wouldn't have rebuked him, would he? Probably said something along the lines, "Well, well, well, I think there's more to this hobbit than meets the eye at first." Or, if Gandalf himself had come across Gollum cradle stealing, I somehow think he wouldn't've spared his life. Gandalf's rebuke to Frodo was not a question of 'If Gollum were brought to court for his crimes he wouldn't be killed' it was 'That's not very nice of you, Frodo, nor very wise. The fact that Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance should tell you that Gollum's time hadn't yet come. Don't be so hasty in such a matter and think before you speak and act.' __________________ A young man who wishes to remain a sound atheist cannot be too careful of his reading. - C.S. Lewis

03-21-2007, 06:45 PM	#2
Morwen Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 274	I don't equate "dealing out death in judgment" with situations that involve self defense or the defense of others. Bilbo killing Gollum in self defense or a parent killing Gollum for attempting to murder his child is not the same as Frodo sitting in his living room making pronouncements on the fate of someone. I agree that Gandalf is telling Frodo don't rush to judgment. But as for Gandalf's personal position on "dealing out death in judgment" he refrains from doing so at least twice, in the case of Gollum and Saruman. In the case of Gollum, Legolas reports at the Council of Elrond that Gandalf had told the elves of Mirkwood to hope for a cure. In the case of Saruman, in response to a question by either Merry or Pippin as to what he plans to do with Saruman, he states that he doesn't plan to do anything to him and regrets that much that was good now festers in the tower. Both Gollum and Saruman have done things that one might possibly kill them for but Gandalf does not suggest that such a thing be done and others seem to content to follow his lead. Last edited by Morwen; 03-21-2007 at 06:54 PM.