Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[Raynor]

Think about it logically. That so many people find some fun in reading about or watching bad guys would logically mean said billions of people would also be out slaughtering, raping and thieving if liking a bad guy is immoral.

I am. This argument is a slippery slope fallacy: you have yet to prove that if one delights in evil, then one will necessarily do evil acts. Fortunately, there are steps.

Being into good or bad characters has absolutely no bearing on a person's intentions.

However, that does not make delighting in evil morally right (when it occurs).

The question asks us if people who like 'bad guys' are evil. The answer is "don't be silly".

So, I take it you will never justify why you consider there is a moral exception in this subject?

But we want him to get away!

Being a victim of evil (or accidents) doesn't make one good. However, to turn to Tolkien, we must be tempered by mercy in our personal judgement; "But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge."

Tolkien's theory on Fairy Tale reflecting Christianity doesn't really work in truth because fairy tale is beyond the constraints of religion, in many cases existed as a rebellion and defence against religion - his thoughts are more those of a man trying to reconcile his faith with his fascination for the blood thirsty and deeply pagan.

I certainly doubt he considered fairy-tales all over the world as reflecting Christianity; his position was that fairy tales can be used as an alternative vehicle for conveying the truth.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am. This argument is a slippery slope fallacy: you have yet to prove that if one delights in evil, then one will necessarily do evil acts.

You mean you have to prove that.

[Raynor]

Bear in mind that Gollum came close to repentance.

However, lack of favorable conditions is not an excuse for persistance in wickedness.

Also... who really admires / wants to be like Gollum?

If it has any relevance, I actually debated with such a person.

[Raynor]

You mean you have to prove that.

Let us look at your argument again:

1. if liking a bad guy is immoral

2. it would logically mean billions of people find some fun in reading about or watching bad guys would also be out slaughtering, raping and thieving

Since you have made said statement, the burden of proof lies on you to show the inevitability of the outcome. You need to prove that a certain liking will necessarily bring about the said actions. I am curious how.

However, if you insist that you have no burden of proof whatsoever, I will point that there is no known conditioning of human nature that necessarily drives a person to action based on a certain liking he has. Simply having a liking does not imply that the liking will translate into intention, which will translate into action. If you know of any such law of human nature, please provide it.

What I have argued from the begining is that if morality is defined as chosing between good and evil in any situation, then <<the argument that "chosing evil in fictional settings is somehow good or morally acceptable" is false>> is a truism.

[Durelin]

A person who "likes" Morgoth isn't "choosing evil," they're choosing to be (or they just happen to be) entertained by an evil character - entertained whether they just find him/her amusing, exciting, or even intellectually stimulating, etc., or all of the above.

Edit: I can see where you might say that crazy people who get really into the evil mindset could be "immoral," but then you have the argument of whether or not someone is actually choosing evil simply in a fantasy or if they're only actually choosing evil if they act on whatever "immoral/evil fantasy" they might have. Perhaps that's where the disagreement really lies? Or simply people are talking about two different sides of the spectrum....

[Raynor]

A person who "likes" Morgoth isn't "choosing evil," they're choosing to be (or they just happen to be) entertained by an evil character - entertained whether they just find him/her amusing, exciting, or even intellectually stimulating, etc., or all of the above.

However, it is one thing to say <<"I like amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" "and I admit that said evil guys may display them">> and totally another to say <<"I like Melkor because he is evil and that attracts me about him">>. Simply liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong; it is deligthing in evil (as I pointed out several times) that I consider it raises questions about morality.

I can see where you might say that crazy people who get really into the evil mindset could be "immoral," but then you have the argument of whether or not someone is actually choosing evil simply in a fantasy or if they're only actually choosing evil if they act on whatever "immoral/evil fantasy" they might have.

I am not sure I follow; can you please rephrase?

[Durelin]

Originally Posted by Raynor

However, it is one thing to say <<"I like amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" "and I admit that said evil guys may display them">> and totally another to say <<"I like Melkor because he is evil and that attracts me about him">>. Simply liking "amusement, excitement and intellectual stimulation" in itself is not morally wrong; it is deligthing in evil (as I pointed out several times) that I have a problem with.

Delighting in evil in the sense of having fun killing people? Then yes, I certainly agree.

I am not sure I follow; can you please rephrase?

Sorry! To think I express my thoughts better in writing than in spoken word...pretty scary...

Well, to put it simply: is thinking about killing someone evil, or is it only evil if you actually do it? And, is it evil in the same way? And...there are probably innumerable questions involved in that.

[Raynor]

Delighting in evil in the sense of having fun killing people? Then yes, I certainly agree.

Well, not fun in doing them was my point, but in "witnessing" instances of evil, in and of itself.

is thinking about killing someone evil, or is it only evil if you actually do it?

As I have argued, morality is defined first and foremost by intention.

I would also consider Tolkien's own statements:

Originally Posted by Footnotes to Melkor /Morgoth, Myths Transformed

Every finite creature must have some weakness: that is some inadequacy to deal with some situations. It is not sinful when not willed, and when the creature does his best (even if it is not what should be done) as he sees it - with the conscious intent of serving Eru.

therefore, an good intention defines the morality of the action, almost regardless of consequences [Edit: and this is why I consider that Tolkien stated in letter #246 that "To ourselves we must present the absolute ideal without compromise, for we do not know our own limits of natural strength (+grace), and if we do not aim at the highest we shall certainly fall short of the utmost that we could achieve." - good intent saves, but it requires full cooperation/dedication]

Originally Posted by Letter #181

I am afraid, whatever our beliefs, we have to face the fact that there are persons who yield to temptation, reject their chances of nobility or salvation, and appear to be 'damnable'. Their 'damnability' is not measurable in the terms of the macrocosm (where it may work good). But we who are all 'in the same boat' must not usurp the Judge.

therefore, an evil intent defines the morality of an action as evil, even if "macrocosmically" it may result in good.