Seems Like Someone's Rooting for the Wrong Side

[CaptainofDespair]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

but when you totally lose the point of the book and see the evil as the way to live, that's rather messed up, and that's what the thread's about.

Who, in reading LOTR, actually sees evil as a way to live?

Edit: Mind the fact that you don't get a great impression of how evil actually lives in LOTR. Also, forget the sociopaths.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I've seen some odd fans. They aren't really turned evil, but the certainly would seem to give you the impression. They don't seem to know when the "play" ends. I've never seen this behavior in "fans of good." Overall though, I didn't mean for this thread to be almost entirely focused on the oddest of fans, I just wanted to know why some fans of the darkness never seemed to acknowledge, even for a second, that the bad guys were ultimately the ones who were wrong and nasty. Like I said, the Nazgul are cool, but I still know that in the end they were heartless murderers.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by The 1,000 Reader

I've seen some odd fans. They aren't really turned evil, but the certainly would seem to give you the impression. They don't seem to know when the "play" ends. I've never seen this behavior in "fans of good." Overall though, I didn't mean for this thread to be almost entirely focused on the oddest of fans, I just wanted to know why some fans of the darkness never seemed to acknowledge, even for a second, that the bad guys were ultimately the ones who were wrong and nasty. Like I said, the Nazgul are cool, but I still know that in the end they were heartless murderers.

Would it matter if they were 'evil'? Evil's a value judgement at heart - if someone is being cruel to animals or children or exercising psychological torment and threats on people then that's evil behaviour. But as for some kids mucking around in robes and thinking they're going to summon up a manifestation of Sauron or something - well it's just not going to happen, so leave them to their play-acting.

Fact is, a lot of young people like Tolkien's work for the adventure and the thrills and the monsters and the sword fighting, and that's not 'wrong', and put that together with the interest a lot of young people also have in being alternative and trying different things ( from growing your hair long to dabbling in magic - it can cover just about anything) and some will want to play act that Sauron and Orcs really existed. So long as you don't start actually living full time as an Orc or a Hobbit then you're just a fan responding to the work, that's all.

People do know that the Orcs were nasty, but they still find them interesting. And anyway, it's so easy to wind up young, idealistic Elf-heads by pretending to be a Minion...and it can be great fun too....

What do you think of vampires?

[Elmo]

People do know that the Orcs were nasty, but they still find them interesting. And anyway, it's so easy to wind up young, idealistic Elf-heads by pretending to be a Minion...and it can be great fun too....

I'll second that

Does anyone actually read Lord of the Rings and thinks 'hey let's try and raise an army of orcs and try and take over the whole world'? This reminds of all that crap about Harry Potter being the antichrist.

[Thenamir]

...I...<grrr>...will...not...<oomph>...post...on.. <aiiii!!>...this...thread...

[Thenamir]

Forgive me for catching up on replies to 30 posts in one.

Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #1

So, why do people root for and like the forces of evil?

The fact is they don't think about the woebegotten serfs and plebes who live out their lives in misery. These are the twisted souls who want to BE the villain, the One In Charge, the one who calls the shots. The ones who think that Good is boring and Evil is exciting are the ones who imagine that they will be the recipients of all the goodies. The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.

Originally Posted by Second of the Nine

Melkor was a bloody evil idiot who, judging from the sort of places he produced, could not possibly have had anyone's best interests in mind, and he should have just sat down, shut up and played along with the rest.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen, post #2

The sterility of absolute goodness - I am thinking a little of Blake and his resentment of the stifling effect of tradition and the establishment

To that I can only reply

Originally Posted by Thenamir, in several other threads on good and evil

When an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-benevolent being says to you, "Don't go there," it is not ruggend individualism, nor free thinking, nor creative license to go there anyway -- it is probably suicide.

Originally Posted by Raynor, post #3

How come you consider her selfish...when one sacrifices everything for love

Greater love has no man, than to lay down his life for a friend.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë, post #4

you can like which ever characters you want to like...There isn't a wrong side, because these are just characters in a book.

This is very true. But it seems to me that you can tell quite a bit about a person from knowing with whom they sympathize. If you'd rather be buddies with Sauron than Gandalf, then I'll keep my eyes on you while I feel for my hatchet. (Apologies to C. S. Lewis.) And Yes, Virginia, there is a wrong side -- if you favor totalitarianism versus freedom, you are on the wrong side, for the reasons Second of the Nine states above.

Originally Posted by Raynor, post#5

Doesn't intention in fact define morality, moreso than the materialisation of intention?

Precisely, Raynor. When your intention is to satisfy and gratify youself without regard for the well-being and happiness of others, that is the quintessential definition of evil.

Originally Posted by The 1,000th Reader, post #6

a good deal of them are middle-aged folk

If anyone thinks the Goth contingent is confined to teenagers, you are gravely mistaken. There are people of all ages who are miserable, and would like nothing more than to drag everyone else down into their misery with them -- the idea that someone, somewhere is happy makes them go postal.

Originally Posted by Lalwendë, post #7

There are some Downers who happen to love Orcs, think Melkor is ace and have crushes on Grima. So what? They aren't wrong, but it's definitely wrong to say they are wrong for that as it's a free choice.

LOL -- just read that over again to yourself, saying that it is wrong to say that people are wrong -- can you not see the self-contradiction? Without admitting it to yourself, you are guilty of establishing a standard of right and wrong, while at the same time saying that such standards should not exist! It is certainly not wrong (in the sense of "illegal") to hold such views. But to glorify oppression, tyranny, and self-aggrandizement is indeed wrong (in the sense of "immoral" or "evil"). Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?

Originally Posted by the guy who be short, post #8

good and evil are relative concepts. The elves were doomed to hate orcs and try to wipe them out. The orcs were doomed to hate elves and try to wipe them out. To the orcs, the Elves must have appeared as evil aggressors. Supporting them is entirely fair...we have white and black in the Elves and Orcs. All you have to do is press a button to invert the colours.

Heavens! Surely you will not tell me that you are trying to draw some kind of twisted moral equivalence between the live-and-let-live (for the most part) Elves, and the murderous near-automatons of a ruthless and compassionless overlord? "Oh, if we could just undertstand the orcs, learn why their hatred is so great, perhaps we could reason with them, help them find their inner orcling..." This kind of reasoning is what blinds beople into inaction until it is too late.

Originally Posted by Theoden

How shall any tower withstand such numbers and such reckless hate?

I am skipping around a bit here -- please do not think that because I left a post without comment that it was not interesting or insightful. My time is limited. And several posts were adequately answered by others. This post is already long enough, and perhaps if I find more time tomorrow, I will pick up some other points which fatigue does not allow me to cover now. Feel free to flame away!

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Thenamir

Whatever happened to the maxim, "Do unto others as you would like them to do to you"?

I personally follow the maxim "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". I am beholden to nobody but myself, and I certainly do not need a supernatural presnece to tell me how to behave. I am mature enough to work that out for myself, and I have been brought up that way by Christian and Agnostic parents. I am one of the most responsible, law-abiding and moral people I know, if I say so myself.

This also gives me the advantage of being able to distinguish a fictional character from a real one. If people who cannot do that wish to judge me for it, then it's not my problem but theirs. Far too many people judge by appearances I'm afraid.

As indeed people judge Goths. Yet in comparison to the herd mentality of most young people you could not hope to meet a bunch of more creative, interesting, intellectual, thoughtful people. I hope to have a young Goth (or similar ) child one day .

And I'm afraid a large contingent of Tolkien fans, including members of this very board, are kids and adults just like that. We are not all cuddly, fluffy little good girls who sit with our hands neatly folded on our laps. Some of us indeed might be pinko commies, gays, ethnic minorities or 'satanic' atheists and pagans. Personally I don't really care what a person is, it certainly does not make them wrong.

The ones who sympathize with evil are the ones who fail to see that "good" is good for all, while evil is good only for the one on top, and they want to be that one.

No. We don't fail to see that at all. But we do know that these are just made up characters in a book and if you really want to judge people for having fun with them, then really, its just sad.