Gothmogs and dragons and noobs, oh my

[Elmo]

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Back to dragons, if they were made from some type of animal, how did Melkor manage to make them sentient?

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem. He could have done it like he did with the werewolves, though that procedure is strange in itself. The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!). That's a lot of power to be put in a lizard, though I have to concede that it would need as much power if he devised them from scratch.

Originally Posted by The Might

I could personally imagine this corruption as similar to what Sauron did with the winged beasts during the Third Age:

But Sauron's beasts are dwarved by Melkor's dragons. Even if we take into account that Melkor was more powerful and probably more skilled at corrupting beasts, and even if we assume that pre-dragons were already stronger than pre-winged-beasts, I don't think this fits.

I never thought of the Were-worms. A nice idea, I admit, but the fact that they're mentioned nowhere but in the Hobbit makes it improbable. And the prefix 'were' suggests that they were strongly influenced by Melkor already. But maybe they had a common ancestor.


PS: I also enqueue in the 'Gothmog was a man'-camp, like in the old poll.

[Boromir88]

Hate to bust in here, but just one little thing:

The more interesting question to me is: how was he able to make them so powerful? You could argue that they were more powerful than Balrogs (Maiar!).

Actually, that can't be made . In Tolkien's earliest conception of the Balrogs (BoLT), they were an entire race of their own, and he talks about 'armies' of Balrogs. And even in BoLT it's remarked that the Dragons were Melkor's deadliest servants, save the Balrogs. (If I remember correctly in BoLT Tolkien even played with the idea of Balrogs riding upon Dragons). Tolkien would later greatly change his thoughts about Balrogs, making them Maiar, more powerful, and setting the number of Balrogs that existed from 3 to 7. Dragons stayed relatively the same, so I don't think any case can be made for a dragon being more powerful than a Balrog.

Dragons seemed to be more effective and do more damage, probably because there were hundreds upon hundreds of them; where by Tolkien's latest thoughts only 7 Balrogs ever existed at the most (HoMe X: Morgoth's Ring).

[Mithalwen]

Maybe as with dragons there were winged and unwinged types of balrog......

[Macalaure]

As I said, one could argue.

I had the Bragollach in mind, where it is said that orcs and balrogs were in Glaurung's host, which I would interpret as 'under his command'.

[Elmo]

Back to Boromir88's point, remember warriors seemed to be killing dragons all over the shop, yet the only people who ever killed Balrogs were very powerful beings who also killed themselves in the process.

[Macalaure]

Well, Dragons have an obvious shortcoming. In a one-on-one combat, Balrogs are extremely difficult to get rid of, whereas Dragons have their common weak spot. When faced with a higher power, during the War of Wrath, the Balrogs were swept away easily, while the Dragons caused problems. Also, I believe there were Dragons of very different 'levels', and Scatha and Smaug don't seem to me as being top notch. Ancalogon and Glaurung, however, look like they were at least close to the ranks of the Balrogs.

Anyway, no matter how powerful Dragons were exactly, they were quite a force in both fighting and cunning. I will happily concede that Balrogs are much better if somebody explains me how Melkor was able to create this force.

[Boromir88]

Mac, aye, but Gothmog was the High-Captain of Angband; which in the heirarchy of things puts him right up there with Sauron and at the head of Morgoth's troops. I did dig up what I was looking for from BoLT:

"Now those drakes and worms are the evillest creatures that Melko has made, and the most uncouth, yet of all are they the most powerful, save it be the Balrogs only."~BoLT II: Turumbar and Foaloke

Again, this being an early conception of Balrogs, where there were thousands and even Tuor kills 8 of 'em in Gondolin.

Mith isn't there a Balrog wing debate some where else? What are you trying to do here?

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

If I remember correctly in BoLT Tolkien even played with the idea of Balrogs riding upon Dragons).

That's an amazing image - how awesome would this have been, in every sense of the word?!

Heh, and it also hints that the Balrogs did not have wings, if they needed steeds to ride upon...but that's not the discussion, is it?

Anyway. The thing with dragons is that they are not merely 'dumb animals' but truly terrifying creatures possessed with genuine intelligence and magical powers such as Glaurung's hypnotic stare - reminiscent of the Basilisk. And Tolkien, who 'desired dragons with a profound desire' would not have created stupid, animal-like dragons, he could only create truly terrifying, sentient dragons. However Melkor could not have created sentient beings, which is the sticking point. But he could have corrupted existing beings and bred from and with existing animals, and in so doing, create dragons who served Melkor's purposes.

In early drafts about the fall of Gondolin Tolkien wrote of mechanical objects which were in the form or shape of dragons attacking the city, reminiscent of the machinery of war in WWI (the flammenwerthers), but later had actual dragons engaged in this warfare - much more satisfying.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

I don't think making them sentient is the greatest problem.

I disagree; only Eru has that power.

Originally Posted by Orcs, Myths Transformed, HoME X

As the case of Aule and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers.

Originally Posted by Of Aule and Yavanna, Silmarillion

- Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?

Originally Posted by Letter #212

The One rebuked Aule, saying that he had tried to usurp the Creator's power; but he could not give independent life to his makings. He had only one life, his own derived from the One, and could at most only distribute it. 'Behold' said the One: 'these creatures of thine have only thy will, and thy movement. Though you have devised a language for them, they can only report to thee thine own thought. This is a mockery of me.'

[obloquy]

I just love it when people support their opinions with copious quotes from the books! Nice post, Raynor.

[Macalaure]

I disagree; only Eru has that power.

Of course Melkor could not have created a sentient being. What he could have done is, like he did with werewolves, 'put' a spirit into their bodies, and thus make them sentient. Where Melkor took those spirits from is something I'm asking myself as well.

I just noted the possibility. I don't think this is very likely.

I've been pondering to put a 'How did Melkor make dragons' thread up some time ago, but thought it would be a stupid question. Maybe it wasn't so stupid after all - if nobody of you knows, too.

[Raynor]

like he did with werewolves

Hm, where is that stated?

Concerning the creation of dragons, the closest Tolkien ever came to describing it (that I know) is in the Book of lost tales, relating to the fall of Gondolin:

Therefore [Maeglin] counselled Melko to devise out of his sorceries a succour for his warriors in their endeavour. From the greatness of his wealth of metals and his powers of fire he bid him make beasts like snakes and dragons of irresistible might that should overcreep the Encircling Hills and lap that plain and its fair city in flame and death.

[Macalaure]

Hm, where is that stated?

Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron; and Sauron brought werewolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.
~ Of Beren and Lúthien

And these spirits had to be at least somewhat sentient, since Draugluin spoke, though only once.

[Raynor]

beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he had imprisoned in their bodies.

I would say it is more likely that he imprisoned them in their original bodies, rather than he 'put' them there.

And these spirits had to be at least somewhat sentient, since Draugluin spoke, though only once.

In Myths Transformed, Tolkien speculated that orcs, who at the time he considered that they had no fea, were reeling off 'records' of language set in them. Also, Draugluin words aren't that much sophisticated. I would say even a modern day dog can be trained to give signals of various enemies.