Werewolf XXX - Tol-in-Elendili - The Isle of the Were-Faithfuls

[Hookbill the Goomba]

To tell you the truth, Manwe, it was because I had little to go on, really. It was either you or the Saucepan Man last time and I just had an inkling more towards yourself than the Pan man. Call me crazy but... well... you'd be right.

Hookbill, because I don't like the fact his computer is down.

I don't like that fact either.
But I have my new computer now, so everything is goods. *Dances*

I must come clean, though, on the first day I was just a tad lazy to really read through the post properly and assumed that things would iron out eventually. Losing my computer privileges for a few days got me reading them a bit more closely because I had to even though my time was scarce.

Brinniel's lynching really confused me. I read the arguments for her lynching and couldn't fathom it. I should take a look at those who voted Brinniel and look for suspicious... things...

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Manwe

Seeing as no-one else spotted the mistake yesterday. Those two posts [227, 235] you point out were me in fact me advocating strongly for the death of Roa. I was trying to get across to you that your reservations for voting Roa were incorrect, that killing Roa was the best option. Others have also stated that this was the best option.

You're mixing up the two issues. Though I regard voting for Roa as a Faithful thing to do, others find it sensible. This issue divides innocents, as Nogrod and Rikae showed.

You, however, thought it was sensible to kill Roa not because you wanted to be rid of the cobbler, but because you entertained the notion that she might not be the cobbler. This doubt of Rikae looks very faithful to me, especially the way you tried to make it look widespread in post 203 when it wasn't:

Originally Posted by Manwe, post203

I would also like to add, that Roa seems to have lost her 'cool' after the accusation. Seems rather desperate; now we have Rikae a possible Seer (possible in the eyes of Roa and a few others) revealing her as the cobbler.

Post 227 and 235 are devoted to doubting Rikae's claim to be the Seer:

Originally Posted by Manwe, post 227

People, what Rikae says is why I wrote my second 'plus' for killing Roa, if we kill Roa and she is innocent we know that Rikae is lying without doubt. Rikae telling us Roa is the Cobbler is a perfect chance to sort the mess out of, is she (Roa) a Cobbler, and is she (Rikae) the Seer.

Originally Posted by Manwe, post 235

Killing Roa and finding out what she is would prove without doubt whether Rikae is the Seer or not. It's a win win situation in a way, for if Rikae is not a Seer than we can kill her, with a certain knowledge she is either the actual Cobbler or Faithful thats if she does not die tonight.

Please do not try to confuse the two issues of voting for Roa, and believing Roa's claim that Rikae was not the Seer. The two are very different, and your willingness to muddle them to make my accusations look unsound only further cement my belief in your guilt.

I also note the knee-jerk reaction.

You seem intent on having me lynched.

All too true.




On a non-Manwe note, the Faithfuls' killing of Rune has confused me. Why kill the person who gained the second-most votes, who could most likely be lynched today?

One theory is that there are a few wolves among the Brinniel voters who feared suspicion and so killed Rune, thereby showing that most of the rest of the village had also voted for an innocent yesterday. This would incriminate Lalaith, Legate, Lommy and Mith. But the more I think about it, the less this kill makes sense.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by the guy who be short

On a non-Manwe note, the Faithfuls' killing of Rune has confused me. Why kill the person who gained the second-most votes, who could most likely be lynched today?

One theory is that there are a few wolves among the Brinniel voters who feared suspicion and so killed Rune, thereby showing that most of the rest of the village had also voted for an innocent yesterday. This would incriminate Lalaith, Legate, Lommy and Mith. But the more I think about it, the less this kill makes sense.

I'm still a bit at loss with your logic tgwbs. It's just hard to say whether we think this differently (and naturally thinking the other one does it really bad) or are you a Faithful who deliberately tries to make others think weirdly...

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by Me, post386

What I notice here is the huge amount of no-ideas. Durelin, Hookbill, Kitanna, Lalaith, Legate. That's far too many people I haven't paid enough attention to.

Let's form some opinions.

There are now too many posts for me to consider going over everything each of these people has said. I shall try to lessen my load somewhat by starting from Day 2. Day 1 is always a stab in the dark anyway.

Durelin

Post 141 - yay-ranger post.

Post 150 - nothing

Post 156 - mildly suspicious of Hookbill, based on Roa's reasoning (pre-knowing she was a cobbler).

Post 216 - Yay Rikae post. Believes firmly in Rikae, which is a good sign I feel. Mild suspicion of Hookbill, Brinniel and Lommy.

Post 228 - Says Roa still has a vote, so she can still do harm. Again, firmly believes in Rikae.

Post 262 - Says not voting for Roa means we might lynch somebody else randomly. Defends Legate for the second time. Accuses Brinniel and Kath.

Post 268 - Votes Roa.

Post 278 - Nothing.

Post 282 - Nothing much.

Post 308 - Accuses mith.

Post 314 - Dear me. A long analysis of everybody. Let's see:
Neutral about Brinniel.
Neutral about Gil.
Thinks I'm innocent.
Neutral about Hookbill.
Suspects Kath.
Defends Kitanna.
Neutral about Lalaith.
Neutral about Legate.
Neutral/ slightly suspicious of Manwe.
Suspects Mith.
Neutral about SpM.
Suspects Lommy.
Suspects Rune.

Post 316 - Nothing.

Post 331 - Defends herself against Lommy's accusations.

Post 364 - Suspects Rune and Lalaith.

Post 389 - votes for Rune. Mild suspicion of Hookbill, Gil. Slight defense of Lommy over her Glirdan slip.

Post 396 - Wants to know how her playing style has changed, according to people.

Post 404 - Defends her vote for Rune.

Post 415 - Nothing.



Well... that took FAR longer than I expected. I don't think I can manage even this undetailed analysis for all five. Nogrod, will you have time to do a few? Hookbill and Kitanna in particular have seemed to escape widespread attention.

It's hard to come to a conclusion on durelin. I don't know her playing style, so I don't see how it's changed. I find nothing to jump on, nothing that seems to shout Faithful. She does, however, seem to post quite often to say nothing much.

I don't really agree with a lot of her reasoning - her attacking Rune, wanting to lynch Roa, etc. But these aren't indicators of Faithfulness, but a difference of style, technique and belief.

I still find her quite neutral. That was a worthwhile analysis.

[the guy who be short]

Originally Posted by nogrod

Now this makes me scan to the PanMan again. Maybe this is yet another Valarish plan of the Faithfuls, but I still think that if SPaMman is innocent - and as the Faithfuls knew I would be protected - why did they kill Rune instead of him?

Thus far I have believed SpM to be innocent, but his continued life makes me doubt him a little.

The problem is that this always happens when SpM lives late into a game. People think that he must be a wolf, because otherwise the wolves would see him as a threat and kill him off.
However, the wolves know people will think this, so they may leave him alive in order to let him garner votes.
Or perhaps they leave him because they know that he is influential, but his suspicions are all wrong and so misleading the village.

I think it's impossible to decide.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'm still a bit at loss with your logic tgwbs. It's just hard to say whether we think this differently (and naturally thinking the other one does it really bad) or are you a Faithful who deliberately tries to make others think weirdly...

I do have a very unique brand of logic, being a mathematician. However, that idea was just me trying to attach meaning to Rune's murder. I can't figure out why they chose him, and this annoys me a lot because this is the first person the Faithful have killed out of choice.

Originally Posted by Lommy

And TGWBS, I think you manage to point out how weird/contradictory Mänwe is...

I have neither said that he has been weird nor that he has been contradictory. I've said I don't like the way he tried to spread the unease and doubt around Rikae.

Goodnight.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now this makes me scan to the PanMan again. Maybe this is yet another Valarish plan of the Faithfuls, but I still think that if SPaMman is innocent - and as the Faithfuls knew I would be protected - why did they kill Rune instead of him?

Originally Posted by TGWBS

Thus far I have believed SpM to be innocent, but his continued life makes me doubt him a little.

Ah, here we go. The point that plagues me every game where I last more than a few Days ...

I don't know why I haven't been killed. Then again, I don't know why Mithalwen hasn't been killed. Or Lalaith. Or many others still here. I suspect, however, that being one of the chief suspects of the only known innocent and nearly being lynched in place of the Cobbler two Days ago might have something to do with it ...

As for the reason behind Rune's death, I think that Nogrod has probably put his finger on it. His final two words most likely sealed his fate, suggesting as they did his innocence. Although it will be worth looking at those he suspected and those who voted for him to see whether there may have been other motives.

I am afraid, however, that it is getting late here. Still early-ish, by my normal standards, I suppose, but I am tired. I leave you with the Day 3 voting record and will take a closer look at it when I return tomorrow.

Brinniel: ++Rune (Rune 1)
TGWBS: ++Brinniel (Rune 1, Brinniel 1)
Kitanna: ++Hookbill (Rune 1, Brinniel 1, Hookbill 1)
TGWBS: --Brinniel, ++Manwe (Rune 1, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1)
Kath: ++Rune (Rune 2, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1)
Rune: ++Brinniel (Rune 2, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 1)
SpM: ++Lommy (Rune 2, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 1, Lommy 1)
Mithalwen: ++Lalaith (Rune 2, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 1, Lommy 1, Lalaith 1)
Durelin: ++Rune (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 1, Lommy 1, Lalaith 1)
Lalaith: ++Brinniel (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 2, Lommy 1, Lalaith 1)
Lommy: ++Brinniel (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 3, Lommy 1, Lalaith 1)
Legate: ++Brinniel (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 4, Lommy 1, Lalaith 1)
Mithalwen: --Lalaith, ++Brinniel (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 1, Brinniel 5, Lommy 1)
Hookbill: ++Manwe (Rune 3, Hookbill 1, Manwe 2, Brinniel 5, Lommy 1)
SpM: --Lommy, ++Rune (Rune 4, Hookbill 1, Manwe 2, Brinniel 5)
Nogrod: ++Manwe (Rune 4, Hookbill 1, Manwe 3, Brinniel 5)
Nogrod: --Manwe, ++Rune (Rune 5, Hookbill 1, Manwe 2, Brinniel 5)

Did not vote: Gil-Galad, Manwe

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

I don't know why I haven't been killed. Then again, I don't know why Mithalwen hasn't been killed. Or Lalaith. Or many others still here. I suspect, however, that being one of the chief suspects of the only known innocent and nearly being lynched in place of the Cobbler two Days ago might have something to do with it ...

"Or many others still here..." You're right with this! Why wouldn't they have killed Mith or Lalaith, or Lommy or Durelin or tgwbs or Legate or...? How do you make a difference? Maybe one should look at whom the Faithfuls wouldn't like to see around in this confused situation where everyone is as suspicious as any other? But they would not kill one of themselves as the rules deny the chance...

So whom do we have there but you Mr. SPM? It was the Faithfuls' first actual night of open choice last Night if you don't remeber. They had everyone but me on their plate... and if you're innocent they just happily ignored you as they thought that an innocent Spm's analysis would leave them intact toDay and would be less of a threat to them than Rune? Remember the numbers...

As for the reason behind Rune's death, I think that Nogrod has probably put his finger on it. His final two words most likely sealed his fate, suggesting as they did his innocence. Although it will be worth looking at those he suspected and those who voted for him to see whether there may have been other motives

You just can't be serious here! In this situation the Faithfuls have no reason to shy away from killing an "innocent Spm" just because Rune had one of them on his suspicion list! C'mon man and admit it!

So aren't you now trying to mislead people here to spend their time on that? The killing of Rune can be explained as it's clearly because of his honest frustration ("Silly sods") when he thought (mistakingly) that we had lynched him. But just consider the scale here. Somewhat dubiously shared belief of Rune's innocence (which four Faithfuls could thwart easily at least to a degree where it would not be a shared fact) vs. the possibly damning analyses by Spm?

I have backed down with suspecting you lately because of a lack of any further evidence and because I have thought (and still do) that as an innocent you would be an asset to the village, but now I'm getting the "proofs" I need to call for your immediate lynching... followed by lynching of tgwbs who has generously come to "doubt you a little".

Sorry guys but you are caught.

That's what I think anyway now.

I hope I will have time enough later toDay to elaborate on this and possibly to see to some others too (Durelin I'm a bit worried about but just can't pin it down as yet).

[Gil-Galad]

so with Nogrods reasoning TWGBS and SPm should be looked at closely, if they are two faithfuls then that is indeed dangerous... so i shall have to go ahead and vote for one of them, if either of them is innocent and the other may be too, and seeing that SPm may be a greater asset my vote goes for this

++The Guy Who Be Short

[Nogrod]

Oh Rune, you silly, silly sod!
(Sorry about my vote. I tried to save Brinniel who looked clearly innocent whilst of you I had no clear opinion... sadly I learned it only after your misguided comment that cost you your life.)

I feared this after your last post and that was the way it went. You declared yourself innocent at the last moment yesterDay with it and those dratted Faithfuls were witty enough to read it...

Now this makes me scan to the PanMan again. Maybe this is yet another Valarish plan of the Faithfuls, but I still think that if SPaMman is innocent - and as the Faithfuls knew I would be protected - why did they kill Rune instead of him?

I agree with you Hookbill in here. The lynching of Brinniel was folly. I tried to say that we leave the newbies in the first place and secondly tried to say that Brinniel looks too innocent to be lynched. I was late, I know, but darn this sharing of the computer when one has not time to actually delve in and live the last moments with full effort...

But we have a new Day and only a Cobbler has been catched and even that cost us our Seer's life. Let's now pull ourselves together!

It's 9/4 now.

We make a misjudgement toDay and it will be evidently 7/4 tomorrow (as I'm dead then). Another mistake makes it 5/4 the next Day... and thence a mistake by one of us nails it.

And even if this looks like we have a couple of Days to play the reality is a bit gloomier. With their votes the Faithfuls can steer the lynchings towards their ways as they know where to steer them unlike us. Even toDay only half of us innocents differing in our opinions will give the Faithfuls a free reign over the lynching of yet another innocent if they so wish. And why not in this phase of the game?

So we need to be very sharp now.

So Brinniel voters should be seen first. If there are people who seem to have not suspected her so much before and just voted for her late yesterDay. I would say that would shout a Faithful (jumping on a popular wagon with an innocent). The same goes with Rune-voters in a bit lesser degree.

Time to give the computer to Lommy (1.10 AM here), but I'll be back...

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now this makes me scan to the PanMan again. Maybe this is yet another Valarish plan of the Faithfuls, but I still think that if SPaMman is innocent - and as the Faithfuls knew I would be protected - why did they kill Rune instead of him?

Nogrod, could you elaborate? I did not catch you rpoint, I'm afrais. Why does "this" make you scan SPM again? And why do you wonder why Rune was killed instead of him? Because Sauce is a great benefit for the village when innocent?

And TGWBS, I think you manage to point out how weird/contradictory Mänwe is, but if I had to judge his behaviour (like one usually must while playing ww) I think he looks more like a confused innocent than like a faithful.

[Thinlómien]

Day1
#25 Speaks about the roles and the quantities, "Everyone who's discussing how the wolves are/will behave is out of their minds. It's Day 1. The wolves don't have to do anything but sit back and let everyone get confused, bogged down by theories and plans." Says she agrees with Sauce and Nogrod, but doesn't elaborate about what. Calls the SPM-Mänwe interaction interesting. Finds Mith's comment about gifteds strange. Is irked by Glirdy's post. Comments on a remark by Garin. Promises a vote for us to chew soon.
#29 Agrees with Rune about Mänwe acting weirdly in his few latest posts. Says Mänwe's talking the ultimate Day1 in-character nonsense. Says she has nothing else to go on and votes him. Says she'll be back to reconsider the vote.
#84 Doesn't like the idea of lynching Nog or SPM simply because they'd be dangerous as faithfuls. Mänwe doesn't sit right with her, but she thinks a faithful would maybe be more honey-tongued. Says Rikae's vote for Mänwe wasn't suspicious per se, but that it was so close after her own Mänwe-vote makes it odd. Apologises to Garin and finds him "pretty darn odd looking".
#107 I suspicious of Rikae and Garin, but not probably enough to switch from Mänwe. Agrees with Mith about Roa being very loud and wanting to lynch SPM. Answers to TGWBS why was she worried about Glirdy not saying much, but not about Kath. Thinks Hookbill has a good point about Mänwe and says that makes her think he's the cobbler. Does not like Mänwe's comment that he wants Nog lynched. Agrees with Nogrod that in werewolf people always tend to go after the easy targets. Asks if Nogrod has any new thoughts (since he suggested the "possibility of looking things anew").
#110 Right after Rikae revealing: "Oh lord, I knew this was going to be off to a bad start..." and a switch form Mänwe to Garin.
#125 "Wow, there were a lot more people around then I thought. I guess I jumped the gun thinking voting Garin was my only option. Argh."

Comments: Well, she spends a lot of time agreeing with this and that. Her first vote is weird. I mean, she promises to vote soon though she's sure she can come back. Then she votes someone who (it seems) she wasn't really very suspicious of ("there's nothing better to go on"). Why do this? Why just not vote? Because she's a wolf who wants to ensure she's voted early and no one can blame her since that was a reasonable vote at that phase, but later she'd need to make a more reasoned vote? Also, I can't understand that last comment of hers. During the day, she expressed suspicion of three people: Mänwe, Rikae and Garin. She had voted Mänwe previously and had switched to Garin. She knew Rikae was the seer. What's the lost possibility she was after? I don't understand. She seems suspicious.

Day2
#141 Cheers the ranger, says she's now a bit more hopeful. Wonders how Rikae can be sure that the ranger protected her. "Why would the wolves choose to risk wasting a nice kill? Is it simply stupidity, or were they that desperate to kill Rikae for some reason?" Agrees with Rikae about Rikae-voters (she said that looking her voters isn't probably very useful). says she'll have a look at Garin-voters and those who did not join bandwagons. States that wolves have no need to join a bandwagon on Day1. Says to Mänwe Roa's analysis are helpful. Says she had neither a case against Mänwe the Day before nor lots of things to back her suspicion.
#150 Says she missed the protectee-will-be-told -rule.
#156 A sarcastic remark about Gil's behaviour. Thanks Roa for the analysises, says the one about Hookbill is the most interesting one, implies that she'll be watching him. Repeats that the Garin-voters should be looked at.
#216 Is cheerful of Rikae's success. Says she has no reason to doubt Rikae and that Roa should be ignored. Wonders about Roa expressing faith in Legate, but doesn't reach any conclusion. Talks about the cobbler. Corrects my vote summary. Says that I, Brinn and Hook have " bit of a forced, edgy sort of feel to their posts - - , but I definitely do not suggest they are all three wolves or even two of them are, though it's possible." Thinks Brinn's vote for Legate was a safe one, does not know what to think of him.
#228 Says Rikae has a good point when she says Roa should be left alive, but says that Roa can do a lot of harm while alive by for example voting. Replies to Roa.
#262 "I do hope we're not overthinking this, and will trap ourselves in that. I also hope that 'wasting a lynch' on Roa doesn't mean we will waste a lynch on a different person who seems simply a good alternative." Says that the village has spent a lot of time discussing Rikae and Roa and that if Roa is not lynched, the lynch target will be far too random. Does a little vote summary. "If Roa is indeed the cobbler, which I will assume for now, I think more consideration regarding SPM's guilt can wait". Says Roa's support makes Legate an easy target, says again that she has no idea of him. Agrees with TGWBS that we should look at those Roa didn't mention. Is concerned about Brinn and Kath and their quietness.
#268 "Everyone's right about people "dropping like flies," and I really don't want us to end up stuck with a Cobbler and x number of wolves, with the few innocents left carried along with the tide." Says cobblers are nassty to have around, votes Roa. Says she can change if a better suggestion emerges.
#278 Agrees with Nogrod about "clarity". "Mith - Why are you so concerned about saving Roa, but at the same time you make it seem like you feel SPM really is a shot in the dark?"
#282 Says we're far from lost yet.

Conclusions: By no way as suspicious as her Day1. Actually she'd seem pretty innocent had she not made that weird comment about SPM ("If Roa is indeed the cobbler, which I will assume for now, I think more consideration regarding SPM's guilt can wait") and had she not been that eager to join TGWBS's campaing to search for clues from Roa's posts, and even in an over-simplistic logic.

Day3
#308 "Regardless of our odds, we have rid ourselves of a Cobbler. The wolves are ally-less, and we have two Gifteds still safe...as long as we don't try and lynch them." Says that (mathemathically speaking) there must be at least one wolf in those who wanted to keep Roa alive, implies that Roa was a good lynch target, defends this view against TGWBS. Suspects Mith is an acting bold wolf, since she was so over-dramatic.
#314 "I don't know what a wolf Mith would try to do, but it doesn't sit right with me." Sums up her feelings about people: Brinn - no clear opinion, Gil - totally uninvolved, TGWBS - has points for and against his wolvishness, Hookbill - thinks he's amiable and his style's setting people off, Kath - sneaky, Kitanna - sneakier than Kath, but innocent-looking, Lalaith - confusing, Legate - amiable and helpful -> pretending?, Mänwe - confusing, Sauce - normal expect less involved, Lommy - too silent and edgy. Suspects Rune because he had a "way better feel" about Legate and still voted him and because his Roa-comments and notes that Rune has gone amost unnoticed. Does not understand the save Roa -campaign.
#316 Jokes to SPM.
#331 Defends her cheerfulness about Rikae having dreamt by the cobbler. says that her vote for Mänwe on Day1 was she trying to see if people would wake up a bit.
#364 Asks Mith for reasons to her suspects, wants to know what she thinks of Brinn. Names Rune and Lalaith her top suspects. "She [Lalaith]'s been nice and cautious, and makes it seem like she expresses her own opinions, though her opinions are nicely placed after someone else has already expressed similar ones, as if she's helping guilt along." Asks Lal a question.
#389 Replies Lalaith. Notes about silent people (Mänwe, Hookbill, Gil). Does not understand the concern over my mistake. Votes Rune.
#396 Asks Nogrod how has her playing style changed (since Nog said so).
#404 Says Rune's not a last-minute lynch and that not many people seem to suspect him.
#415 "Are we ever going to cease making this difficult for our poor Modalaure?"

Comments: Not that suspicious either. I think a wolf would have only been happy to jump at my mistake, and that kind of makes me less wary of her. Her explanation of her day1 vote is reasonable... but in a slightly wolvish way. It's so easy to say that afterwards. I don't like her comment about wolves being ally-less... In my opinion a cobbler isn't that big loss to the wolves, especially not when there's four of them and they're all still alive. The phrasing of that comment just bugs me.

Final comments
There's not as much reason- or sense-based reasons to suspect her as I thought there was. (But there's still plenty of them , especially in her Day1 -behaviour.) But, my gut-feeling of her being a faithful has become even stronger. There's something in her manner that really doesn't sit right with me.

EDIT: xed

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by SPaMman

Ah, here we go. The point that plagues me every game where I last more than a few Days ...

Now now... Have we seen an act looking more Faithfulish than this? Look at the bolding and make your deductions...

Darn shared computer and most of all the timetables - and clock anyway! I try to look at some things briefly now. I will be back later, although in the middle of RL rush. Still I try to find some time to sit down for at least one good while. It's so frustrating to have one's last Day alive in the middle of gazillions of hindrances...

[Durelin]

Okay, that last minute Brinniel thing confused me just as much as the last minute try-to-save Roa thing did. Again, it was like people were trying to rescue Rune, rather than vote for who they were actually suspicious of. I am really bothered by how people, even if they speak their own minds, do not back it up with a vote. Rather than voting for who they find suspicious, they vote for just who "looks like they can be lynched," who maybe they suspect a little, maybe even more than a little...but all the while their top suspect is forgotten, and all the analysis or what have you they did against them becomes meaningless.

Please, please - everyone. We have to get a wolf toDay (duh, I know), so please vote for who you think is suspicious, and not just who is convenient.

I am not going to get over Mith, I'm sorry. I just don't get her attitude. She's making as big of a fuss as possible over the state of the village at every turn, but not doing much about it. The past two Days she's rushed in at the last minute to save first a probable Cobbler and then an at that time unknown from lynching. YesterDay she specifically switched her vote to do so from Lalaith. She switched her vote from Lalaith to match Lalaith's. Eh?

The Brinniel bandwagon really started with a simple spite vote from Rune. It's absurd. Yes I suspected her a bit, but obviously I didn't see a reason to lynch her immediately...and no one seemed to give much of a reason, either.

Lalaith: "I don't much like the choices we've got but like I said before, it's a toss-up for me between her and Manwe, and I don't think Rune's guilty."

Lommy: "of my suspects she can be lynched"

Mith gives no reason for her switched vote, and Legate, though he at least seems to have been fairly "sure" of her guilt, doesn't give a reason for his certainty.

Not all of those people can be wolves, so it seems some of the innocents in this game are using as many underhanded tactics as the wolves likely are, strategizing their lynch targets based on who can be lynched.

Lommy - I thought I explained my Day 1 vote in the very post my vote was in, but when I look back at the actual post...obviously, I wasn't very clear. But I talked about "stirring things up" in my previous post, so if you think I was explaining it away later, at least I was consistent, eh?

I swear no one's paid attention to me in games in a while. Because unless I'm going completely crazy, I know that voting early when I don't have to is something I sometimes do, just to see what happens.

Originally Posted by Lommy

had she not made that weird comment about SPM ("If Roa is indeed the cobbler, which I will assume for now, I think more consideration regarding SPM's guilt can wait") and had she not been that eager to join TGWBS's campaing to search for clues from Roa's posts, and even in an over-simplistic logic.

Ouch. Over-simplistic? If I was over-simplifying things, I certainly wasn't reading very deeply into Roa's posts, now was I? And I meant by my comment that considering the only person who was vehemently supporting suspicion of SPM (well, other than Gil, sort of) turned out to be the Cobbler, we should probably forget about all her reasons of why to lynch him. I tend to think aloud in my posts, so basically that was me trying to narrow down the suspects in my mind.

Edit: Crossed with Nog and Gil

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Durelin

And I meant by my comment that considering the only person who was vehemently supporting suspicion of SPM (well, other than Gil, sort of) turned out to be the Cobbler, we should probably forget about all her reasons of why to lynch him. I tend to think aloud in my posts, so basically that was me trying to narrow down the suspects in my mind.

What happened just a moment ago? Did I have some suspicions over Durelin? And just see what she writes here...

So we should not lynch Spm and conveniently she forgets that I have also suspected Spm from Day1 on quite openly. I think I was indeed the first to suspect him with anything like a point added...

So do we have three wolves in a list of Spm, tgwbs, Durelin...?

Oh you can't be that easy to pick now! Where's the sport now?

Or maybe it was the first actual choice you Faithfuls had to make that just revealed you as you had to try and make it good?

Okay. I'm off for a while but if you will pay heed to an innocent's point of view, think closely before you let these three to turn your minds. If they are the Faithfuls they're surely be honey-tongued and reasonable. No doubt.

tgwbs: how about a short list now? One that the known innocent gives consisting of you three?

[Durelin]

Nogrod - SPM's wording, particularly what you highlighted there, indeed seems to scream *ploy*. The subtlety of it makes it so...well, blatant. But I don't follow your logic much further. I think it's very odd for anyone to bring up the "oh, lad-dee-da, I wonder why I haven't been killed yet... *whistles*" (and lord, particularly when the wolves have only made one free choice on kills, as you said), but you also seem to venture into the idea that SPM or someone else considered *dangerous* should have been killed in the Night. But it's the smartest thing for the wolves to leave alive those who have gotten/are getting at least some suspicion. As you've said, they've only made one "free" choice, so why would they take out someone who might get lynched?

I think I'm reading that wrong, so perhaps you shouldn't waste your time explaining that I am.

Edit: Crossed with Nog, again.

[Nogrod]

I just had time to pop in and reread toDay and update myself. I'm off for a while again but will be back and hopefully have some time to try and figure out even something out of this mess we're in.

I just wish to show you this that somehow escaped me earlier.

Originally Posted by Durelin

Okay, that last minute Brinniel thing confused me just as much as the last minute try-to-save Roa thing did. Again, it was like people were trying to rescue Rune, rather than vote for who they were actually suspicious of. I am really bothered by how people, even if they speak their own minds, do not back it up with a vote. Rather than voting for who they find suspicious, they vote for just who "looks like they can be lynched," who maybe they suspect a little, maybe even more than a little...but all the while their top suspect is forgotten, and all the analysis or what have you they did against them becomes meaningless.

Now this looks very innocent to be honest. I indeed had to read it twice as I tried to figure out how on earth a Faithful would go on with this kind of speculation. It's not so much the contents of this but the fact that she goes on to speculate this kind of thing.

But then she continues.

Please, please - everyone. We have to get a wolf toDay (duh, I know), so please vote for who you think is suspicious, and not just who is convenient.

This on the contrary sets all my alarm-bells ringing!

Confused...

Originally Posted by Myself

tgwbs: how about a short list now? One that the known innocent gives consisting of you three?

Originally Posted by tgwbs

If you look back, you will note that I did not advocate a shortlist this game. The way people keep bringing this up annoys me, because it is fabricated........

A bit uptight now aren't we? As that clearly was a joke...

It's good to see you and Spm so helpful toDay! Time to make an impression?

Originally Posted by SPaM

Which just goes to show (for me, anyway) how easy it is to view malign intent behind innocent, but misguided, words. You seem to have made up your mind that I am a Faithful and are now looking for anything in what I say which might support that theory.

You know it as well as I do that basically anyone can be painted black if that is wished for. But I have not decided anything in advance and am trying very much not to overdo this as I think it be of an utmost importance that I will not mislead anyone toDay.