The Dior Dilemma

[Raynor]

I'm willing to accept that the Half-Elven-who-chooses-Elvenkind is in all respects a full, regular, Elf, but that is biologically.

There are two main areas that are not taken into account by this idea, and which significantly separate Men from Elves. One is the high level of abilities specific to the elves; Elrond is the greatest loremaster of Middle Earth, perhaps the most skilled healer, a powerful magician, he can foresee into the future in some matters, and I believe he can recall from his childhood the world of the First Age. The other is the special communion elves had with their body

Originally Posted by Aelfwine's preamble, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME X

They are not easily deceived by their own kind; and their spirits being masters of their bodies, they are seldom swayed by the desires of the body only, but are by nature continent and steadfast.

I, for one, have little reason to believe that Elrond didn't excel in this area too. We could argue about the value of Elrond having been a Man (if he ever actually was). However, none of this would diminish Elrond's "elvishness" - at most complete it and enrich it. He remains a foremost exponent of his race.

[Legolas]

Dior was mortal.

All Peredhil would've been mortal until Earendil and Elwing. Manwe made a proclamation:

Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men in whatever part, great or small, are mortal, unless other doom be granted to them.

Dior was never granted other doom, therefore he was mortal.

Originally Posted by The Might

The quote from Letter #153 shows that Dior was given this choice. The question remaining is which choice did he make.

The quote describes the choice given to Earendil, Elwing, and their sons. Not Dior. The choice was only granted to them after Earendil and Elwing had acted so admirably in the final days of the First Age.

But I would still quibble that Elrond et al were not merely "Half-Elves by title only", but, simply, Half-Elves.

Well, "technically", he was a full elf after he and Elros made their choices. After that, he was a half-elven by title only.

Formendacil is correct. What is "a full elf"? Elrond can never be anything other than what he is. Tolkien never refers to him (or any of the immortal half-elven) as an elf - simply stating that "Elrond chose to be among the Elves" (Letter 153). His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK). There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.

[Raynor]

His blood or genetic makeup doesn't change; he was just "granted the same grace" (Appendix A, ROTK).

Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.

Elrond chose to be of Elven-kind, and became a master of wisdom. To him therefore was granted the same grace as to those of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth: that when weary at last of the mortal lands they could take ship from the Grey Havens and pass into the Uttermost West; and this grace continued after the change of the world.

What is "a full elf"?
...
There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate.

It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?

[Rhod the Red]

"There is no reason to now call him an elf just because he shares their fate"

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.

[Formendacil]

See, here's what I'm trying to get at...

I do not deny any aspect of Elrond's Elvishness. I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf. He seems more Elven than Galadriel, Fëanor, and Finrod at times. Possibly, however, this is because as a Half-elf, he has, consciously or unconsciously, molded himself to be as Elven as possible, moreso than a full-blooded Elf, who would just BE an Elf, and not worry about being LIKE one.

I also have a mindset wherein the phrase "blood is thicker than water" holds some validity. Deny it or embrace it, your family history, where you come from, affects who and what you are.

A really good analogy is Spock, off of the original Star Trek-- the Vulcan of Vulcans, who nonetheless is half-human and cannot be anything but half-human. It's not an exact analogy, but it gets at where I'm coming from.

Or, look at it from the point of view of citizenship. Elrond can be said to be a citizen of both (using random countries for demonstrative effect) Uzbekistan and Uganda. Then the United Nations (ie. Valar) comes along and says that you can only be a citizen of one country. Elrond, born in Uganda, would be by default a Ugandian. However, the United Nations are not without their Niënna, and so all the dual citizens are given a choice of which nation they wanted to belong to. Elrond, raised Uzbeks and preferring that side of the family tree, chooses to be an Uzbek citizen.

Does this mean that Elrond is no longer a Ugandian at all? He may not be OFFICIALLY a Ugandian, but he still has Ugandian heritage, and he still has Ugandian family ties, and his genetic heritage is still part Ugandian (and as an aside, I would say that if Ugandians and Uzbeks can both be biologically human and reproduce, and yet have different typical characteristics it stands to reason that humans and Elves might have similar, though different, differences).

[Legolas]

Well said, Formendacil.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Your quote is misleading. It reffers to the ability to pass over to the west, not to his immortality.
It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously.

I think his fate is implied. The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate. He would share their abilities in any event. Imagine that he never receives the choice. He eventually dies as he is mortal, given Manwe's judgement. His nature is due to his ancestry and environment, not his fate.

He lived the life of one, therefore accepted in his community as a full Elf.

He is not accepted as "a full Elf" and has no need to be. He is accepted as himself, Elrond Peredhil. Half-elven, and of the lineage of Finwë, Thingol, and Melian. Socially accepted among the Elven, and they are all aware of his family more than anyone. They know the story backwards and forwards. Why does he need to become anything other than Half-elven?

Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.

It wasn't just sharing their fate, but also their other abilities, which I mentioned previously. Anyway, do I understand correctly that you consider Men, Half-Elven and Elves to have the same "blood or genetic makeup"? If so, what would make a Half-Elven less of an elf, than a "naturally" born Elf?

They must be of the same genetic structure, but not the same genetic makeup. By genetic makeup, I mean the specific genes passed to him by his parents. Just as native Africans and native Europeans have the same genetic structure - they are H. sapiens with 46 chromosomes - but do not have identical genotypes.* The offspring of a native European and a native African will be less European than a "full" European, and less African than a "full" African - yet any one offspring has the chance at being much more phenotypically† one or the other.

Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

It may be even logical to presume that this is why he chose to be immortal - he was more Elven in manner, felt more connected to that aspect of his ancestry, etc.

* genotype - an organism's genome, or genetic makeup
† phenotype - the actual characteristics expressed as a result of genotype and environment

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

I would agree that, in pretty much all respects, he is an Elf's Elf.

Then, if I understand correctly, we are in agreement .

Originally Posted by Legolas

Likewise, Tuor does not 'become an elf.' He is still a Man; he is simply granted the same grace.

I doubt this is a correct interpretation:

Originally Posted by Of Tuor and the fall of Gondolin, Silmarillion

But in after days it was sung that Tuor alone of mortal Men was numbered among the elder race, and was joined with the Noldor, whom he loved; and his fate is sundered from the fate of Men.

Why would he be numbered among the elder race if he wasn't an elf himself? How could he still be a Man if he doesn't share their fate anymore?

The fact that he shares their abilities remains unchanged by his fate.

I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.

He would share their abilities in any event.

Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?

Likewise, Gimli "lived the life of one" on Tol Eressëa, but that does not change his fundamental kind. He is a dwarf, and accepted as a dwarf.

I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.

Which actually brings me to a better description. Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?

[Legolas]

I am not aware that Elros displayed any ability I mentioned - nor that any Man shared them. This are specific Elvish traits, gifts of their race.

How would you be? We're told very little about Elros. Any apparent difference would certainly be explainable - his genotype may be from the same parents, but his phentotype still may be different, just as brothers of any sort can be and usually are different. The influence of his ancestry does not disappear because he has chosen mortality. Being of elvish descent I would expect Elros to exhibit flashes of Elvishness. Why wouldn't he? It is precedent. His extra long life is the obvious example. There also seems to be traces of Elvish strength and 'wisdom' or 'cunning' in some of his descendents (evident in Aragorn). This also makes Aragorn's childhood in Rivendell understandable, or at least easier on Aragorn. Also, see below for the Imrahil-Legolas point.

Why? Is there any sign he had them before he made the choice?

We're given no reason to believe that they magically appear when he chooses to be immortal. To say that they did would be more speculative, and goes against what we see.

As dilute as Imrahil's Elvish strain was, Legolas still recognizes it instantly:

At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. ‘Hail, lord!’ he said. ‘It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water.’

Imrahil's only elven ancestor was twenty-three generations ago. Why then do you think Elros and Elrond would not show the "elven-blood in [their] veins"?

I would call this a false comparison. Gimli didn't make any choice (as Elrond did); he was a guest in the elves' home. He would die there, to the manner of his kin; Elrond would live to the end of the world, as elves do.

The point was directed solely at Rhod's comment - you do not have to become an elf to be accepted into elven society. The fact that Elrond is accepted has nothing to do with "being a full Elf."

What sets apart Half-Elven from Elves from Men among them (in genotypes, or by whatever criteria you consider relevant)?

The mixture of Elven and human traits? I'm not sure what else you're looking for.

[Raynor]

I have overlook the importance of your statement, since, frankly, our whole debate hinges on this:

Elrond's phenotypes are all, or at least more often, Elven where there is a difference between Men and Elves. However, that does not change his genotype. He is still Half-elven.

In what instances does Elrond behave/is like a Man and not like an Elf (-if any, in fact)?