Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Isn't Frodo at this stage close to Gondor? He could have made it back in time to hand the Ring over to Gandalf.

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.

If Sting could pierce the Witch King, why not Orcrist or Anduril? The latter is the mightiest of all the blades, unless I am mistaken.

Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

Originally Posted by alatar

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.



Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo. Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

In the movie, Galadriel gives Merry & Pippin elven blades as gifts before they depart from Lorien, so they may still have been of use to the same effect against the WK as in the book.

Frodo could have reached Gondor with the aid of Faramir if he chose to do so, in the nick of time for Gandalf to at least gain possession of the Ring, if not wield it even.

[Raynor]

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo.

The quote doesn't appear in the letters, but in materials at the Marquette collection; it is reffered to by Hammond and Scull in the LotR Companion, comments of "A knife in the dark.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by own enemies for his destruction.
...
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew

Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

Narsil was specifcially used to cut the ring from Sauron's hand when he was already "overthrown". We don't know if doing that required any special weapon - nor that Narsil inflicted itself any significant damage during the fight. And frankly, a mighty sword that break's under a man??

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo.

Note that, in the books and in the movie, Frodo does not acquire Sting from Bilbo until he reaches Rivendell, which follows the events on Weathertop. I could see how, in the books, the Witch-King is somewhat stung by Frodo's blade as that blade, like Merry's, comes from the Barrow, and so it at least could be a WK-bane.

Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

Do we really know how Narsil was used in the battle with Sauron? This sword was broken in the battle, and afterwards the broken shards are used to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. Narsil surely is one of the top swords, but Sauron may have been brought down by Aiglos.

In the movie, Galadriel gives Merry & Pippin elven blades as gifts before they depart from Lorien, so they may still have been of use to the same effect against the WK as in the book.

I know that it's quibbling, but when does Merry get his elvish blade back after his stay in Orthanc? Note that the sword that he wants to use in the service of Theoden King requires sharpening, not something you'd expect for such a fair blade.

Isn't Gandalf the White a supernatural creature of a high order, & the Witch King just a corrupted sorcerer? In this situation, has there been any example of when a supernatural creature has lost in battle in Middle Earth? For the Witch King to stand a chance, he would need Sauron to have the Ring, which would enhance his own power enormously. Being given an added demonic force out of the blue by Sauron does not make sense, as Sauron is still much weaker than ever before, & so therefore are the Nazgul.

It is a fault by Tolkein, who realised that if Sauron couldn't be used, & the Witch King was not going to trouble Gandalf the White, then a quick fix of increasing the power of the Witch King was the answer. This wasn't going to be the answer, & Gandalf had already defeated the greatest foe after the Darklord in Moria in a weaker status of his Order.

Perhaps sending another foe out of Mordor, like the Mouth of Sauron, alongside the Witch King would have been a greater task for Gandalf to face.

[Raynor]

In this situation, has there been any example of when a supernatural creature has lost in battle in Middle Earth?

Fram killed Scatha the dragon, Glorfindel - a balrog, Echtelion- Gothmog lord of the balrogs, Bard - Smaug, Turin - Glaurung.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Fram killed Scatha the dragon, Glorfindel - a balrog, Echtelion- Gothmog lord of the balrogs, Bard - Smaug, Turin - Glaurung.

Whether dragons possess any elevated form of fea (such as the ealar who are known as Balrogs) is debatable. Glorfindel and Ecthelion were virtually demigods. Glorfindel is said to be nearly as mighty even as some Maiar; Ecthelion must also have been.

The Peoples of Middle Earth, XIII, Last Writings, Glorfindel essay 2:

After his purging of any guilt that he had incurred in the rebellion, he was released from Mandos, and Manwe restored him.... For long years he remained in Valinor...in the companionship of the Maiar. To these he had become almost an equal, for though he was an incarnate...his spiritual power had been greatly enhanced by his self-sacrifice.

Admittedly, this reflects the power of Glorfindel post-reincarnation, but he was evidently near to the power of an incarnated Maia, as those Balrogs who were slain must have been, even before his sacrifice. (Note: after his reincarnation he was nearly equal with Maiar in their natural incorporeal state.)

[Raynor]

There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron.

To me, the later seems to be case

Originally Posted by Letter #210

The Witch-king, their leader, is more powerful in all ways than the others; but he must not yet be raised to the stature of Vol. III. There, put in command by Sauron, he is given an added demonic force.

Glorfindel and Ecthelion were virtually demigods.

As you have stated yourself, Glorfindel enhanced status appears after his death, as all reincarnated elves are, IIRC. That passage you quoted is irrelevant for Glorfindel at the time of his battle; the same goes for Echtelion. In a "mirror" argument, if he was greatly enhanced afterwards, his initial power, compared to his new one, is greatly reduced.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Mansun

It is a fault by Tolkein, who realised that if Sauron couldn't be used, & the Witch King was not going to trouble Gandalf the White, then a quick fix of increasing the power of the Witch King was the answer. This wasn't going to be the answer, & Gandalf had already defeated the greatest foe after the Darklord in Moria in a weaker status of his Order.

It wasn't a fault of Tolkien's, it was a fault of the filmmakers'. This idea that the Witch-King is suddenly beefed up enough to match Gandalf was not Tolkien's. The Witch-King never approaches Gandalf's level in the books. There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron. The latter, even if it were true, would still not put the Witch-King at any level near Gandalf's latent potential. Indeed, how could it? Sauron and Gandalf were equals in their beginnings, so how could a weakened Sauron enhance his fundamentally mortal servant to a level beyond (or even equal to) one of Sauron's own peers? To what degree Gandalf's Istar limitations were adjusted is unclear, but even while under those constraints he was capable of defeating a Balrog without violating the rules. The Balrog was unquestionably mightier than the Witch-King in written Tolkien, though the movies' conception of him may be different. If there's incongruence here, it's Jackson & co.'s, not Tolkien's.

I have always believed it should have been a contest between Gandalf the White & Sauron. This would be logical in that the Nazgul had already been held off by Aragorn (& Gandalf in the Books), the Balrog had been destroyed by a weaker Gandalf, so an enhanced Gandalf needs an opponent worthy of being able to defeat him.

As far as the films are concerned, perhaps the Witch King wasn't as large or as menacing as he should have been, in comparison to the Balrog which I think was awesome. I would have ;iked to have seen a crackle of that luminous energy burst through the Witch King to give him more appeal. I never believed Gandalf was anxious of the Witch King, he was afraid of Gondor not being strong enough to hold off his army until Rohan arrived. The threat of the Witch King was the last thing he needed to contend with in this overwhelming situation - there was too much for him to do by himself without the aid of Rohan.

[alatar]

Always note that, however powerful or weak Gandalf may have been in regards to the Witch-King, he had the Achilles' heel of caring about others, even the slaves of Mordor. The WK, as he rides (not flies!) towards and into the Gate at Minas Tirith, heeded not the dead or dying, whether friend or foe. All that mattered to him was to do his Master's bidding, with hopefully the chance for a little fun on the way. Gandalf, though, could be swayed at the taking of a hostage, even if he were more powerful than the WK (note the words of the Mouth of Sauron at the Morannon. He didn't say anything about killing Frodo...). Plus there's always that command that Gandalf was given not to match force with force, and so he could not fight Sauron in the way that PJ may have liked.

By the by, though tangential to the movie WK-Gandalf question, I've enjoyed the recent discussion.

[The 1,000 Reader]

Originally Posted by obloquy

It wasn't a fault of Tolkien's, it was a fault of the filmmakers'. This idea that the Witch-King is suddenly beefed up enough to match Gandalf was not Tolkien's. he Witch-King never approaches Gandalf's level in the books.

Actually, Gandalf was nervous about confronting the Witch-King, as evidenced in the discussion with Denethor. Gandalf was grim on the matter, and did not answer with a direct yes or no. The strength the two had was not one-sided in favor of another. If Gandalf knew the Witch-King was no problem, he would not be grim and indecisive on the matter.

Originally Posted by obloquy

There is a letter that indicates that the Witch-King was in some way enhanced for The Return of the King, but it's not clear whether Tolkien means narratively enhanced, or literally souped-up by Sauron.

It's literally. When placed in command of the armies, he was given "An added demonic force."

Originally Posted by obloquy

Sauron and Gandalf were equals in their beginnings,

And where do you get this from? If you recall, Gandalf was actually afraid of going to Middle-Earth and facing Sauron. Since Sauron was already weakened yet Gandalf still was fearful, Gandalf was certainly not on the same level as Sauron in the beginning.

Originally Posted by obloquy

so how could a weakened Sauron enhance his fundamentally mortal servant to a level beyond (or even equal to) one of Sauron's own peers?

He obviously did, otherwise the Balrog-slaying Gandalf would not have been grim on the possibility of a confrontation. Besides, if Gandalf could have taken out the Witch-King in three seconds, the entire purpose of having their confrontation would be null and void.

Originally Posted by obloquy

To what degree Gandalf's Istar limitations were adjusted is unclear, but even while under those constraints he was capable of defeating a Balrog without violating the rules. The Balrog was unquestionably mightier than the Witch-King in written Tolkien, though the movies' conception of him may be different. If there's incongruence here, it's Jackson & co.'s, not Tolkien's.

We don't know that. As Gandalf the Grey, Gandalf killed a Balrog. As Gandalf the White, who was more powerful, Gandalf was uncertain of the victor in a bout between him and the Morgul Lord. There is a good chance that the added demonic force could have indeed elevated the Witch-King to a level where he would be a threat to Gandalf the White.

As for lesser beings defeating greater beings, that's strewn nearly everywhere in Tolkien's works. Huan beat Sauron, Elendil and Gil-Galad beat Sauron when he had the Ring, Luthien bested Morgoth, the numerous dragon slayings, dwarves killing Thingol, Morgoth eventually dying by the hand of Turin, Ungoliant defeating Morgoth, the Witch-King's defeat at the hands of Eowyn and Merry, Sam beating Shelob, and ultimately Frodo, Sam and Gollum finishing Sauron. Just because Gandalf's a Maia doesn't mean he's fine against anyone of lower rank.