Gandalf Vs. The Witch King

The WK couldn't have known for sure where the Ring was at the time of the Siege of Minas Tirith. It is perfectly possible that Gandalf had the Ring in his possession as the WK confronted him. So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances? What would have happened if Gandalf DID have the Ring? Would the WK have still gone into battle, or realise that he is way overmatched & withdraw?

Originally Posted by CSteefel

Still, I think the problem with the Witch King and Gandalf is that the new powers of Gandalf were played up, both in the book and the movie. In the book, the WK is said to have been given new powers by Sauron, but Gandalf has been given additional powers as well, and as Gandalf says in meeting Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli again in Fangorn, "no weapons can hurt me". So I think there is a real problem in consistency here--it simply doesn't make sense that Gandalf should be de-staffed and unhorsed so easily...

I would re-phrase that to '' none of YOU have weapons that could hurt me . . .'', meaning that there could be other weapons which could still harm him. Interesting to know that Anduril could pierce the Witch-King, but not Gandalf the White though, a hint that the Witch King is more vulnerable to fall than Gandalf.

[Raynor]

So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances?

Practical reasons I would say. Even if he did have some fears about this, he wouldn't show them, it would be to his disadvantage. Plus, instilling fear was his main attribute, he should use it even when bluffing.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The WK couldn't have known for sure where the Ring was at the time of the Siege of Minas Tirith. It is perfectly possible that Gandalf had the Ring in his possession as the WK confronted him. So why the overconfidence shown by the WK in these circumstances? What would have happened if Gandalf DID have the Ring? Would the WK have still gone into battle, or realise that he is way overmatched & withdraw?

We are speaking about the movies, right? Didn't one of the Winged Nazgul (whichever one) see Frodo in possession of the One Ring in Osgiliath?

I would re-phrase that to '' none of YOU have weapons that could hurt me . . .'', meaning that there could be other weapons which could still harm him. Interesting to know that Anduril could pierce the Witch-King, but not Gandalf the White though, a hint that the Witch King is more vulnerable to fall than Gandalf.

Your Gandalf quote, though fitting for how the character is portrayed by PJ, is starting to sound like 'legalese.' And how do we know how the Witch-King would be affected by Anduril?

Originally Posted by alatar

We are speaking about the movies, right? Didn't one of the Winged Nazgul (whichever one) see Frodo in possession of the One Ring in Osgiliath?



Your Gandalf quote, though fitting for how the character is portrayed by PJ, is starting to sound like 'legalese.' And how do we know how the Witch-King would be affected by Anduril?

Isn't Frodo at this stage close to Gondor? He could have made it back in time to hand the Ring over to Gandalf.

If Sting could pierce the Witch King, why not Orcrist or Anduril? The latter is the mightiest of all the blades, unless I am mistaken.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

Isn't Frodo at this stage close to Gondor? He could have made it back in time to hand the Ring over to Gandalf.

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.

If Sting could pierce the Witch King, why not Orcrist or Anduril? The latter is the mightiest of all the blades, unless I am mistaken.

Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

Originally Posted by alatar

Sure, except that Gandalf was either at Helm's Deep or in route to Helm's Deep. Surely the Great Sauron would keep an 'eye' on one of his major foes.



Sting did not pierce the Witch-King or any undead, and so we don't really know what this spider's bane would have done. I'm not sure if Anduril is the mightiest of all blades. Also, note that in the movie two nonmagical blades take down the Witch-King (though in the books Merry's blade is specifically designed to bite the Angmar King.).

Cheers.

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo. Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

In the movie, Galadriel gives Merry & Pippin elven blades as gifts before they depart from Lorien, so they may still have been of use to the same effect against the WK as in the book.

Frodo could have reached Gondor with the aid of Faramir if he chose to do so, in the nick of time for Gandalf to at least gain possession of the Ring, if not wield it even.

[Raynor]

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo.

The quote doesn't appear in the letters, but in materials at the Marquette collection; it is reffered to by Hammond and Scull in the LotR Companion, comments of "A knife in the dark.

But above all the timid and terrified Bearer had resisted him, had dared to strike at him with an enchanted sword made by own enemies for his destruction.
...
Escaping a wound that would have been as deadly to him as the Mordor knife to Frodo (as was proved at the end), he withdrew

Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

Narsil was specifcially used to cut the ring from Sauron's hand when he was already "overthrown". We don't know if doing that required any special weapon - nor that Narsil inflicted itself any significant damage during the fight. And frankly, a mighty sword that break's under a man??

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Mansun

I believe somebody did raise an earlier post a few months ago saying that in a letter Tolkein describes how the WK is left shaken by the fact that he was very nearly pierced by Frodo's sword at Weather Top which would have been as deadly to the WK as the WK's knife on Frodo.

Note that, in the books and in the movie, Frodo does not acquire Sting from Bilbo until he reaches Rivendell, which follows the events on Weathertop. I could see how, in the books, the Witch-King is somewhat stung by Frodo's blade as that blade, like Merry's, comes from the Barrow, and so it at least could be a WK-bane.

Whether the Sword of Elendil is the mightiest blade of all is debatable, but it must be one of them due to its ability to pierce Sauron at the height of his power.

Do we really know how Narsil was used in the battle with Sauron? This sword was broken in the battle, and afterwards the broken shards are used to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. Narsil surely is one of the top swords, but Sauron may have been brought down by Aiglos.

In the movie, Galadriel gives Merry & Pippin elven blades as gifts before they depart from Lorien, so they may still have been of use to the same effect against the WK as in the book.

I know that it's quibbling, but when does Merry get his elvish blade back after his stay in Orthanc? Note that the sword that he wants to use in the service of Theoden King requires sharpening, not something you'd expect for such a fair blade.

Isn't Gandalf the White a supernatural creature of a high order, & the Witch King just a corrupted sorcerer? In this situation, has there been any example of when a supernatural creature has lost in battle in Middle Earth? For the Witch King to stand a chance, he would need Sauron to have the Ring, which would enhance his own power enormously. Being given an added demonic force out of the blue by Sauron does not make sense, as Sauron is still much weaker than ever before, & so therefore are the Nazgul.

It is a fault by Tolkein, who realised that if Sauron couldn't be used, & the Witch King was not going to trouble Gandalf the White, then a quick fix of increasing the power of the Witch King was the answer. This wasn't going to be the answer, & Gandalf had already defeated the greatest foe after the Darklord in Moria in a weaker status of his Order.

Perhaps sending another foe out of Mordor, like the Mouth of Sauron, alongside the Witch King would have been a greater task for Gandalf to face.