What if Isengard joined forces with Gondor? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

02-18-2007, 04:43 PM

Could Mordor be toppled if Rohan, Isengard & Gondor worked together to defeat Mordor?

The Might · 02-18-2007, 05:01 PM

I am not really sure what you mean.
If Saruman wouldn't have rebelled against the rest of the Council, he would have never created any army, so Isenagard wouldn't really have had a big force.
But I am quite sure that he could have helped the Fellowship a lot.
Many things would have been different.

Gandalf would have had no need to go to Isenagrd, since Saruman wouldn't have asked Radagast to send this message in the first place. This way the problems caused by the Nazgul in Eriador could have been avoided and Frodo could have reached Rivendell much more easily.
There would have been no need to use the pass of Caradhras or the Mines of Moria, the Gap of Rohan would have been the best choice. Rohan's forces wouldn't suffer any losses and Theoden could reached Minas Tirith sooner then in the book. The Ents would have played no part in the war probably. Gollum would have died in Moria, and there wouldn't have been a Gandalf the White.

So yes, I guess if you think about it this way, you could say that if Saruman wouldn't have rebelled, the book would have had much less action. But in the end, I think it would have also meant failure for the quest. Frodo had reached a much greater level through all the difficulties he faced on his way, it was this that helped him overcome all the problems and make it to the Sammath Naur. Also, Gollum would have died in Moria, since there wouldn't have been any Fellowship to come through the west gate just as he was hiding around.

So, I guess that if Saruman would have remained a good guy the Fellowship would have failed in the end.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 02-19-2007, 02:31 AM

Also, say the Ring had been lost in the Sea or whatever. Mordor's army in total was much, much bigger than the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan – even without the damage Saruman gave them. If the Ring hadn't been found, and Saruman hadn't turned to evil, the result would have been a much longer and bloodier war, and all-round bad news for the good guys.

mhagain · 02-19-2007, 01:14 PM

Saruman and Gandalf combined would have been nearer a match for Sauron without the Ring, but they would still have been under the prohibition against taking direct action in the War, and so would only have been in a position to give advice.

The point about Gollum is a good one. Frodo would never have been able to destroy the Ring on his own, and it was only through Gollum's intervention that it was eventually destroyed. I don't believe that anyone else would have been able to intervene in this manner.

The story as I see it evolving is:

With the combined advice of Saruman and Gandalf, and with an undiminished and undistracted Rohan available, the good guys can hold out against Sauron for longer, but they don't have sufficient strength to be able to ultimately overcome him.
Frodo and Sam make it to the Crack in much the same way as before, but without Gollum.
Frodo claims the Ring.
With no Gollum to intervene, Sauron eventually gets it back off him.
Much badness ensues.

Gil-Galad · 02-20-2007, 10:29 AM

Well, Boromir would've still been alive... but if the fellowship still would probably fall because Sarumans Uruk-Hai made them fight together.

Boromir might have took the ring for himself too...

Texadan · 02-20-2007, 06:34 PM

It seems to me the question then becomes would the forces of Isengard, Rohan, and Gondor be equal, to or superior to, the ancient armies of Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's my impression, and it's only an impression, that they would not. And the former army only prevailed through a fortuitous severing of a finger.

02-18-2007, 04:43 PM	#1
Mansun Guest Posts: n/a	What if Isengard joined forces with Gondor? Could Mordor be toppled if Rohan, Isengard & Gondor worked together to defeat Mordor?

02-18-2007, 05:01 PM	#2
The Might Guard of the Citadel Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Oxon Posts: 2,205	I am not really sure what you mean. If Saruman wouldn't have rebelled against the rest of the Council, he would have never created any army, so Isenagard wouldn't really have had a big force. But I am quite sure that he could have helped the Fellowship a lot. Many things would have been different. Gandalf would have had no need to go to Isenagrd, since Saruman wouldn't have asked Radagast to send this message in the first place. This way the problems caused by the Nazgul in Eriador could have been avoided and Frodo could have reached Rivendell much more easily. There would have been no need to use the pass of Caradhras or the Mines of Moria, the Gap of Rohan would have been the best choice. Rohan's forces wouldn't suffer any losses and Theoden could reached Minas Tirith sooner then in the book. The Ents would have played no part in the war probably. Gollum would have died in Moria, and there wouldn't have been a Gandalf the White. So yes, I guess if you think about it this way, you could say that if Saruman wouldn't have rebelled, the book would have had much less action. But in the end, I think it would have also meant failure for the quest. Frodo had reached a much greater level through all the difficulties he faced on his way, it was this that helped him overcome all the problems and make it to the Sammath Naur. Also, Gollum would have died in Moria, since there wouldn't have been any Fellowship to come through the west gate just as he was hiding around. So, I guess that if Saruman would have remained a good guy the Fellowship would have failed in the end. __________________ “The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.” Delos B. McKown

02-19-2007, 02:31 AM	#3
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	Also, say the Ring had been lost in the Sea or whatever. Mordor's army in total was much, much bigger than the combined forces of Gondor and Rohan – even without the damage Saruman gave them. If the Ring hadn't been found, and Saruman hadn't turned to evil, the result would have been a much longer and bloodier war, and all-round bad news for the good guys. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

02-19-2007, 01:14 PM	#4
mhagain Wight Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: The best seat in the Golden Perch Posts: 219	Saruman and Gandalf combined would have been nearer a match for Sauron without the Ring, but they would still have been under the prohibition against taking direct action in the War, and so would only have been in a position to give advice. The point about Gollum is a good one. Frodo would never have been able to destroy the Ring on his own, and it was only through Gollum's intervention that it was eventually destroyed. I don't believe that anyone else would have been able to intervene in this manner. The story as I see it evolving is: With the combined advice of Saruman and Gandalf, and with an undiminished and undistracted Rohan available, the good guys can hold out against Sauron for longer, but they don't have sufficient strength to be able to ultimately overcome him. Frodo and Sam make it to the Crack in much the same way as before, but without Gollum. Frodo claims the Ring. With no Gollum to intervene, Sauron eventually gets it back off him. Much badness ensues. __________________ Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful; and he said that he had come out of pity.

02-20-2007, 10:29 AM	#5
Gil-Galad Psyche of Prince Immortal Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Above a Parapet Obvious exits are: North, South, and Dennis Posts: 4,734	Well, Boromir would've still been alive... but if the fellowship still would probably fall because Sarumans Uruk-Hai made them fight together. Boromir might have took the ring for himself too... __________________ Love doesn't blow up and get killed.

02-20-2007, 06:34 PM	#6
Texadan Animated Skeleton Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Texas Posts: 38	It seems to me the question then becomes would the forces of Isengard, Rohan, and Gondor be equal, to or superior to, the ancient armies of Gil-Galad and Elendil. It's my impression, and it's only an impression, that they would not. And the former army only prevailed through a fortuitous severing of a finger.